[Politics] Brexit

[Baldseagull]

Living in Luton for 10 years, I saw good migration and I also saw bad migration. I also saw Religion coming out in a way that I found completely opposite to what this country stands for. What I disagree on was being labelled an xenophobe and islmaphobe for expressing concern, when I could see clearly with my own eyes what was going wrong.

Part of it has to do with EU, part of it doesn't, and other parts of it are to do with people not integrating properly in this country.
I have a experience of where I can say it has gone wrong and it left me with the feeling whether I was living in my own country anymore.

I would love to hear how you feel the EU has played it's part in the issues you see in Luton.

 

[pastafarian]

You were in such a hurry to reply that you didn't really read my post (not that I blame you for that).

My point was that whilst many leavers cite Immigration as being the main reason they voted as they did, they don't in fact have immigration problems themselves. You say virtually the same in your final sentence.

So why do people cite EU immigration as a serious problem for the nation when they hardly ever meet an EU immigrant themselves?

Your explanation seems to be that people in Brighton for example have a deep concern for the social pressures caused by EU immigrants in certain towns across the country (such as Boston and Spalding and, much bigger, Peterborough).

It would be nice if this was true but in a world where most people seem unconcerned about what happens to people in the next street it just isn't plausible. The more likely cause for them voting as they did was the endless ramping of anti-immigrant vitriol in the tabloids, UKIP's publicity techniques and the mainstream Brexit stuff about Turkey being on the brink of joining the EU.

We can leave others to judge which is the more likely, but can I make clear I am not saying that people who were swayed by the nasty stuff are racists.

out of interest why do you have to meet an EU immigrant to have a viewpoint on mass migration?
the negatives surrounding mass migration still exist whether you personally live in an area where there are many migrants or an area where there are few,you cant say people should be detached from an issue or it isnt plausible because thats what you would prefer to happen

for what its worth i think the majority of leavers would think the most important issue in the debate were concerns about democracy,sovereignty and self government

 

[Lincoln Imp]

out of interest why do you have to meet an EU immigrant to have a viewpoint on mass migration?
the negatives surrounding mass migration still exist whether you personally live in an area where there are many migrants or an area where there are few,you cant say people should be detached from an issue or it isnt plausible because thats what you would prefer to happen

for what its worth i think the majority of leavers would think the most important issue in the debate were concerns about democracy,sovereignty and self government

I was using the expression "never meeting an EU immigrant" as shorthand for "not being affected by issues arising from EU immigration". I agree that you don't have to be personally touched by an issue in order to have a view on it but, without wanting to sound cynical, I just don't believe that people in one part of the country get naturally excited in huge numbers about social issues in distant towns they might have barely heard of. Some do but most don't. They need working on.

I am afraid I disagree with you about the main issues for most people being sovereignty and self government. I heard a Brexit campaigner on a Radio 5 afternoon show saying that the reason ordinary people (IDS's "People from the Council Estates" I suppose) voted out was because they had a vision about the future relationship between Britain and Europe. Sorry, but I can't buy it. The reasons were visceral and Nigel and Boris and the rest knew it.

 

[Soulman]

I was using the expression "never meeting an EU immigrant" as shorthand for "not being affected by issues arising from EU immigration". I agree that you don't have to be personally touched by an issue in order to have a view on it but, without wanting to sound cynical, I just don't believe that people in one part of the country get naturally excited in huge numbers about social issues in distant towns they might have barely heard of. Some do but most don't. They need working on.

I am afraid I disagree with you about the main issues for most people being sovereignty and self government. I heard a Brexit campaigner on a Radio 5 afternoon show saying that the reason ordinary people (IDS's "People from the Council Estates" I suppose) voted out was because they had a vision about the future relationship between Britain and Europe. Sorry, but I can't buy it. The reasons were visceral and Nigel and Boris and the rest knew it.

As mentioned, I work daily with EU workers and you ought to try speaking to them. The vast majority except /realise that immigration needs to be controlled. They are also fairly similar in opinions on immigration and the trouble in their countries from certain non EU immigrants. You might be shocked to hear some of their opinions.

 

[Baldseagull]

out of interest why do you have to meet an EU immigrant to have a viewpoint on mass migration?
the negatives surrounding mass migration still exist whether you personally live in an area where there are many migrants or an area where there are few,you cant say people should be detached from an issue or it isnt plausible because thats what you would prefer to happen

for what its worth i think the majority of leavers would think the most important issue in the debate were concerns about democracy,sovereignty and self government

You might be right, but the leave campaign was behind in the polls at the start, it picked up when they focused more on immigration, so I think it is fair to say it is the issue that swung it.
The problem with voting on an issue that you have no contact with, is that unless you go looking, you get given the viewpoint to have. You can be presented with the issue as a population the size of Swindon turns up every 8 months, you can be shown a poster showing long lines of Syrian refugees and the words Breaking Point.
We heard how the UK economy has grown faster than the rest of the EU, economic argument for how well we could do without dragging this lame duck behind us, but they kept quiet about the fact that the numbers of migrant workers coming in were boosting that.

The argument for controlling immigration is fair, but the tactics employed in the campaign were not, and pandered to fear and racism.
Farages poster should have said, we can take in more of these refugees if we have less EU migrants, which is fairly likely, I certainly do not see us taking any less, but instead he talks about Turkey, and lets the fear of Islam and the imagination link the picture to his words.

 

[GT49er]

Latest news from the BBC -

"Siemens promises UK investment despite Brexit warning

Siemens's chief Joe Kaeser said the UK remained a "good place to do business"

German industrial giant Siemens has said it will continue to invest in the UK, despite earlier warnings that a vote to leave the EU could affect its future activities in the country".

See the full article here:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36771595


.................. so it was Project Fear all along then?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

As mentioned, I work daily with EU workers and you ought to try speaking to them. The vast majority except /realise that immigration needs to be controlled. They are also fairly similar in opinions on immigration and the trouble in their countries from certain non EU immigrants. You might be shocked to hear some of their opinions.

I don't think I would be shocked really: huge numbers of unattached migrants suddenly arriving from completely different cultures are always going to be a potential problem, particularly on their first arrival. It is a huge issue facing large parts of Europe and the Middle East.. We were talking about EU migration though. I do understand that you work alongside EU migrants. I'd love to talk to them but, with great respect to you, I don't think I'd learn much that I haven't picked up from spending family time in the areas of eastern Lincolnshire which have the greatest numbers of EU migrants in the country. There are social problems in towns like Spalding but they are not out of hand. I would certainly expect most migrants to say that there should be fewer of them competing for the jobs available. Many of them would like to live in less overcrowded houses too. And of course as a visitor to our country a Latvian field worker isn't going to tell us that he thinks there should be loads more Latvian field workers rolling up.

 

[CHAPPERS]

The beginning of what could be a very bad time for the HE sector.

https://www.theguardian.com/educati...projects-because-of-post-brexit-funding-fears

 

[Soulman]

I don't think I would be shocked really: huge numbers of unattached migrants suddenly arriving from completely different cultures are always going to be a potential problem, particularly on their first arrival. It is a huge issue facing large parts of Europe and the Middle East.. We were talking about EU migration though. I do understand that you work alongside EU migrants. I'd love to talk to them but, with great respect to you, I don't think I'd learn much that I haven't picked up from spending family time in the areas of eastern Lincolnshire which have the greatest numbers of EU migrants in the country. There are social problems in towns like Spalding but they are not out of hand. I would certainly expect most migrants to say that there should be fewer of them competing for the jobs available. Many of them would like to live in less overcrowded houses too. And of course as a visitor to our country a Latvian field worker isn't going to tell us that he thinks there should be loads more Latvian field workers rolling up.

So basically Controlled immigration is what you are saying. So as you mentioned houses in your post, we certainly seem to be going round the houses on this point.

 

[Titanic]

Latest news from the BBC -

"Siemens promises UK investment despite Brexit warning

Siemens's chief Joe Kaeser said the UK remained a "good place to do business"

German industrial giant Siemens has said it will continue to invest in the UK, despite earlier warnings that a vote to leave the EU could affect its future activities in the country".

See the full article here:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36771595


.................. so it was Project Fear all along then?

Did anyone swallow Siemens outpourings?

 

[whitelion]

Did anyone swallow Siemens outpourings?

Sounds nasty.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

So basically Controlled immigration is what you are saying. So as you mentioned houses in your post, we certainly seem to be going round the houses on this point.

You've just sunk me. I have no idea why you think I am calling for controlled immigration.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Interesting quote from The Austrians

Austrian Finance Minister Hans Joerg Schelling said Britain will be diminished by the vote.

"I think probably there will be a 'Brexit-light', so Scotland will not leave (the EU), probably Northern Ireland will stay in the union, and probably Great Britain becomes Little Britain," he said.

Seems like the EU believe Scotland and NI will stay

 

[El Presidente]

Did anyone swallow Siemens outpourings?

I have many films in which people do exactly that, varying from that of a solo performer to a full Almond.

 

[El Presidente]

The beginning of what could be a very bad time for the HE sector.

https://www.theguardian.com/educati...projects-because-of-post-brexit-funding-fears

Yup, we have had a number of issues put on hold and are definitely at the back of the queue for EU funding.

I don't think HE funding is a priority of this administration, so it's a case of tin hats on and await the redundancies.

On the plus side, fewer universities means less experts.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Interesting quote from The Austrians

Austrian Finance Minister Hans Joerg Schelling said Britain will be diminished by the vote.

"I think probably there will be a 'Brexit-light', so Scotland will not leave (the EU), probably Northern Ireland will stay in the union, and probably Great Britain becomes Little Britain," he said.

Seems like the EU believe Scotland and NI will stay

I saw that yesterday. There's a re-run of the Presidential election in Austria due for early October and the far-right candidate has now stated he's not in favour of an 'Oexit' from The EU - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36747304

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I saw that yesterday. There's a re-run of the Presidential election in Austria due for early October and the far-right candidate has now stated he's not in favour of an 'Oexit' from The EU - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36747304

Seems only mentalist parties are.

 

[GT49er]

Did anyone swallow Siemens outpourings?

Yuk !!

 

[Billy the Fish]

I am afraid I disagree with you about the main issues for most people being sovereignty and self government. I heard a Brexit campaigner on a Radio 5 afternoon show saying that the reason ordinary people (IDS's "People from the Council Estates" I suppose) voted out was because they had a vision about the future relationship between Britain and Europe. Sorry, but I can't buy it. The reasons were visceral and Nigel and Boris and the rest knew it.

You only really hear about immigration in the media because of the modern tendency to sensationalise everything.

Of the people I know who voted out, mostly my friends and people at work, immigration wasn't an issue for any of them. They all did their own research and weren't influenced by the campaign, these are intelligent people in their 30s and 40s. You can't just pigeonhole every leave voter into the anti immigration category or assume that it was the only issue. There's enough evidence of that just on this thread!

 

[Guinness Boy]

You only really hear about immigration in the media because of the modern tendency to sensationalise everything.

Of the people I know who voted out, mostly my friends and people at work, immigration wasn't an issue for any of them. They all did their own research and weren't influenced by the campaign, these are intelligent people in their 30s and 40s. You can't just pigeonhole every leave voter into the anti immigration category or assume that it was the only issue. There's enough evidence of that just on this thread!

Plenty that think it but won't say it out loud though.