[Politics] Brexit

Thunder Bolt · Feb 15, 2023

WATFORD zero said:
You really should get your dad to take time off from posting on all his various accounts and review your offerings before posting them. At least then they may be consistent. Still completely wrong obviously, but possibly consistent

But back on the actual subject of the thread, what do you think we should do about the unimplementable Northern Ireland Protocol that you and the rest of your Unionist friends campaigned so hard and long for and now don't want ?

I think I preferred it when he was two professors. At least there was some humour in the posts.

WATFORD zero · Feb 15, 2023

It seems that even members of the Brexit Cabal Cabinet are now starting to admit that it is a complete clusterf***

Brexit and political turmoil hindered investment in UK, minister concedes

A Cabinet minister has conceded Brexit and the ensuing political turmoil under the Conservatives has delivered a blow to efforts to attract investment to the UK. Work and Pensions Secretary Mel Stride accepted on Tuesday that creating “frictions” between Britain and the European Union will have had an impact.

Britain is struggling with high inflation rates and the International Monetary Fund has forecast that it will be the only G7 nation, including Russia, to see its economy shrink this year. Bank of England policymaker Jonathan Haskel has said that Brexit caused investment in UK businesses to plateau and dealt a productivity penalty worth £29 billion.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...A17tit5?cvid=009234078a6646db8bc7cd3aef02d5c9

Obviously not prepared to do anything about it, but I guess admitting it is a step forward

Half Time Pies · Feb 15, 2023

Wokeworrier said:
I think you mean no benefit for business owners reliant on large-scale immigration to keep wages suppressed to keep the profits rolling in, whereas workers paid a pittance for doing many of those jobs might disagree with you. Paying workers more for doing valuable jobs like working in the care sector should be our priority while having an open honest debate about how this can be funded. If you don't mind me asking, has your business been forced to offer better salaries because of staff shortages partly caused by Brexit?

UK sees fastest wage rises in sectors most reliant on EU workers - Indeed

British wages are rising fastest in low-paid sectors where employers previously relied on workers from the European Union, new analysis from recruitment agency Indeed showed on Friday.

www.reuters.com

To be clear, I agree we need some immigration but we seem to have become over-reliant on largescale immigration helping to sustain a low-skill, low-productivity, low-wage economy which is completely unsustainable for numerous reasons.

No thats not what I mean at all. Maybe for large corporations with tax evasion, off shore accounts and the benefits of monopoly but not for small business owners who are struggling to balance rising costs, shrinking margins with the need to increase wages. Do you think us small business owners in the care sector are sat there awash with so much cash that we can simply pay our staff more just like that? No most of us have taken on a shed load of debt to start our businesses in a something that we are genuinely passionate about, we have had negotiated the most challenging operational environment in living memory and now we can't recruit enough staff to support vulnerable people in the community who desperately need our help.

And yes we have put up wages, as high as we can (10% this year), but with inflation at 10% this doesn't benefit our workforce it just helps ensure that they don't receive an effective pay cut, and as every other employer is doing it, it also doesn't make us more competitive in the job market. At the end of the day we are still faced with the same problem which is there aren't enough people looking for work, and because the government (and people like you who fall for the false foreigners taking British jobs narrative) are burring their heads in the sand, there is no plan to resolve it.

chickens · Feb 15, 2023

Wokeworrier said:
Just trying to educate the radicalised and/or misinformed with well-sourced proprietary data Mr zero. Indeed being one of the biggest job sites on the planet which also has its own team of researchers and economists producing data used by the IMF, OECD, ECB and the BofE.

Not sure why you are continually trying to rubbish this SAUCE anyway as you have already conceded ending free movement is a Brexit benefit

I’m afraid it’s only the radicalised (or misinformed) who believe that Brexit’s implementation has been a success for the U.K.

Even its architects have admitted its failure, so for you to repeatedly show up here waving the pro-Brexit flag in 2023, marks you out as (at best) slightly behind current events.

Lever · Feb 15, 2023

The Clamp said:
But they are dying out. Either through old age, Darwin’s theory of evolution, or a steady diet of the Daily Mail and saturated fats.

But they are dwindling.

True, but the tragedy remains that there are several locked minds, here and no doubt elsewhere, who made great claims for Brexit and who are still blind to the shambles they voted for. It's the ongoing self delusion that is so painful to witness. Even ministers are beginning to recognise what problems leaving the EU has caused....

BadFish · Feb 15, 2023

Wokeworrier said:
Just trying to educate the radicalised and/or misinformed with well-sourced proprietary data Mr zero. Indeed being one of the biggest job sites on the planet which also has its own team of researchers and economists producing data used by the IMF, OECD, ECB and the BofE.

Not sure why you are continually trying to rubbish this SAUCE anyway as you have already conceded ending free movement is a Brexit benefit

You are doing a great job, I think it is clear that as Brexit continues to take hold over Britain more and more people are realising what a brilliant thing is has been.

No-one can argue with the facts, everyone one of those Brexit promises, from the injections of £350m into the NHS to the falling of the EU itself, has been delivered. You would have to be a radicalised fool stumbling about for incomplete and inaccurate evidence tod deny that Brexit has been brilliant. Luckily we have warriors like yourself setting straight all those people not smart enough to accept they were wrong.

My guess is that after this unmitigated success Farage will be the next UK PM sweeping away the old parties as the country sails off to new prosperity.

BadFish · Feb 15, 2023

Half Time Pies said:
No thats not what I mean at all. Maybe for large corporations with tax evasion, off shore accounts and the benefits of monopoly but not for small business owners who are struggling to balance rising costs, shrinking margins with the need to increase wages. Do you think us small business owners in the care sector are sat there awash with so much cash that we can simply pay our staff more just like that? No most of us have taken on a shed load of debt to start our businesses in a something that we are genuinely passionate about, we have had negotiated the most challenging operational environment in living memory and now we can't recruit enough staff to support vulnerable people in the community who desperately need our help.

And yes we have put up wages, as high as we can (10% this year), but with inflation at 10% this doesn't benefit our workforce it just helps ensure that they don't receive an effective pay cut, and as every other employer is doing it, it also doesn't make us more competitive in the job market. At the end of the day we are still faced with the same problem which is there aren't enough people looking for work, and because the government (and people like you who fall for the false foreigners taking British jobs narrative) are burring their heads in the sand, there is no plan to resolve it.

It must be somewhat galling for you that someone is holding up these current struggles as a positive of Brexit.

nicko31 · Feb 16, 2023

Thunder Bolt said:
I think I preferred it when he was two professors. At least there was some humour in the posts.

Bakerlite was Two Professors from memory. WW, its debateable how many accounts there are..

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 16, 2023

The Clamp said:
I think we are genuinely looking at a much more rapid rejoining of the single market and possibly the EU, than people are imagining.

The tide turns quickly in these waters. It can take some by surprise.

The single market is the silver bullet to fire-up the economy. More and more people see this week by week.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 16, 2023

Lever said:
Trouble is, Brexit for the remaining rump of Leavers is a lifelong commitment; it is a creed - and no amount of contrary evidence will budge their mindset. They are too invested......

A significant number will be dead soon. Lifelong won’t be much longer.

nicko31 · Feb 17, 2023

I thought we were supposed to have taken back control of our borders?

Still no sanitary and phytosanitary checks, where's Mogg gone?

Will it ever happen?

Brexit blamed for unsafe meat and African Swine Fever

At the moment, no such case has been reported in the UK.

www.express.co.uk

vegster · Feb 17, 2023

nicko31 said:
I thought we were supposed to have taken back control of our borders?

Still no sanitary and phytosanitary checks, where's Mogg gone?

Will it ever happen?

Brexit blamed for unsafe meat and African Swine Fever

At the moment, no such case has been reported in the UK.

www.express.co.uk

Nominally we have control of our borders but a, the government can't afford to hire and train the estimated 50,000 Border/ Customs officers required to do it, and b, if we properly checked every lorry, car etc it would gridlock British ports and lead to lorryloads of waste food.

vegster · Feb 17, 2023

Herr Tubthumper said:
The single market is the silver bullet to fire-up the economy. More and more people see this week by week.

I still have two crates full of empty bottles of Tripel Karmelite under my stairs that's worth about €20 off my next purchase of Belgian beers in Belgium...I'd be over there like a rocket if I could.

WATFORD zero · Feb 17, 2023

vegster said:
Nominally we have control of our borders but a, the government can't afford to hire and train the estimated 50,000 Border/ Customs officers required to do it, and b, if we properly checked every lorry, car etc it would gridlock British ports and lead to lorryloads of waste food.

Not to mention the empty shelves in all UK supermarkets if we were to actually introduce the Brexit 'protect our borders' import controls promised rather than continuingly delaying them, but apart from that it's generally going well isn't it :dunce:

It's taken two whole years for even the most naïve to realise they have been completely stitched up. I would guess another two years and we'll start doing the blindingly obvious to reverse this complete f***wittery whilst millions more suffer in the meantime. Feel really sorry for the poor sods who are trying to live on a limited budget or even worse, like @Half Time Pies , actually trying to run a business in the meantime (and I know how incredibly tough and stressful that can be, even in far more stable times).

Try and keep your heads above the oncoming shitstorm, because there is actually some hope ahead.

Unfortunately not for a little while yet :shrug:

Wokeworrier · Feb 17, 2023

Half Time Pies said:
No thats not what I mean at all. Maybe for large corporations with tax evasion, off shore accounts and the benefits of monopoly but not for small business owners who are struggling to balance rising costs, shrinking margins with the need to increase wages. Do you think us small business owners in the care sector are sat there awash with so much cash that we can simply pay our staff more just like that? No most of us have taken on a shed load of debt to start our businesses in a something that we are genuinely passionate about, we have had negotiated the most challenging operational environment in living memory and now we can't recruit enough staff to support vulnerable people in the community who desperately need our help.

And yes we have put up wages, as high as we can (10% this year), but with inflation at 10% this doesn't benefit our workforce it just helps ensure that they don't receive an effective pay cut, and as every other employer is doing it, it also doesn't make us more competitive in the job market. At the end of the day we are still faced with the same problem which is there aren't enough people looking for work, and because the government (and people like you who fall for the false foreigners taking British jobs narrative) are burring their heads in the sand, there is no plan to resolve it.

Well, at least we can agree that large tax-evading corporations have been benefitting from importing cheap EU labour to suppress wages ... which might be one reason why most of them, (many who help bankroll the Tories) were so pro-remain and why the Tory Government and most of the Tory MP's and party supported remain in the 2016 referendum. Something the many anti-Tory/anti-Brexit obsessives on NSC should reflect on.

I don't doubt the commitment and altruism of many small businesses owners in the care sector but there seems to be a contradiction when on one hand, some claim they are 'struggling to balance the books and simply pay our staff more just like that' but then find the funds to pay a 10% pay rise in one year when the cheap labour tap suddenly dries up.

As any sensible person knows, the cost of living crisis/rising inflation/threat of recession is not a unique Brexit/UK phenomenon which means if we still had large-scale EU immigration the chances of any employer suddenly finding the funds to increase wages to offset the rising costs would reduce.

Please, don't fall into the strawman trap of making this about 'British jobs for British workers', it's about listening to those who have been completely disenfranchised and abandoned by our political establishment/economic model for decades, supported by both Tory and Labour governments. 'Decent wages for all workers' should be a principle we can all agree on.

WATFORD zero · Feb 17, 2023

Wokeworrier said:
Well, at least we can agree that large tax-evading corporations have been benefitting from importing cheap EU labour to suppress wages ... which might be one reason why most of them, (many who help bankroll the Tories) were so pro-remain and why the Tory Government and most of the Tory MP's and party supported remain in the 2016 referendum. Something the many anti-Tory/anti-Brexit obsessives on NSC should reflect on.

I don't doubt the commitment and altruism of many small businesses owners in the care sector but there seems to be a contradiction when on one hand, some claim they are 'struggling to balance the books and simply pay our staff more just like that' but then find the funds to pay a 10% pay rise in one year when the cheap labour tap suddenly dries up.

As any sensible person knows, the cost of living crisis/rising inflation/threat of recession is not a unique Brexit/UK phenomenon which means if we still had large-scale EU immigration the chances of any employer suddenly finding the funds to increase wages to offset the rising costs would reduce.

Please, don't fall into the strawman trap of making this about 'British jobs for British workers', it's about listening to those who have been completely disenfranchised and abandoned by our political establishment/economic model for decades, supported by both Tory and Labour governments. 'Decent wages for all workers' should be a principle we can all agree on.

So, unlike our friend here

JC Footy Genius said:
Membership of the EU is a fundamental question about who has the power to governs us ...democracy, sovereignty etc. After hearing many ignorant politicians on all sides making inaccurate, misleading statements I'm not sure they are any better placed to make the right decision.

JC Footy Genius said:
If you make it about the economy and present opinions or predictions based on unknowable variables as hard facts it is scaremongering. Doesn't stop you (and others) doing it though.

JC Footy Genius said:
I am perfectly willing to concede there is a general consensus of opinion of people deemed to be the top 100 thinkers by the FT. I wasn't even initially aware this was an issue my interest was peeked by another poster who continually states projections and opinions as cast iron fact.

There may well be some negative economic consequences in the short term as we transition out of the EU mainly due to instability but as for the medium/ long term I think projections are worthless as there are to many variables. There is no precedent for this Brexit scenario.

JC Footy Genius said:
I would have hoped after the seemingly endless number of threads/posts/debates/arguments on this topic which we have both contributed to, my numerous reasons were already crystal clear.

To sum up the cost of membership be it diluting direct democratic accountability, continuous dilution of sovereignty/control, plus financial costs passed an unacceptable tipping point for any supposed benefits many, many years ago.

What started off as a manageable more trade focused, like minded coming together of european nations has morphed into a mainly politically driven, ever expanding, Supranational juggernaut heading in only one direction .... damn the consequences (dangerous political/economic instability). Which seems incapable or unwilling to reform.

You never thought it was about democracy and sovrinty, the economy, trade, protecting Irish Unionists, but about supressing the wages of the working people all along ?

Well who could have guessed :facepalm:

Half Time Pies · Feb 18, 2023

Wokeworrier said:
Well, at least we can agree that large tax-evading corporations have been benefitting from importing cheap EU labour to suppress wages ... which might be one reason why most of them, (many who help bankroll the Tories) were so pro-remain and why the Tory Government and most of the Tory MP's and party supported remain in the 2016 referendum. Something the many anti-Tory/anti-Brexit obsessives on NSC should reflect on.

I don't doubt the commitment and altruism of many small businesses owners in the care sector but there seems to be a contradiction when on one hand, some claim they are 'struggling to balance the books and simply pay our staff more just like that' but then find the funds to pay a 10% pay rise in one year when the cheap labour tap suddenly dries up.

As any sensible person knows, the cost of living crisis/rising inflation/threat of recession is not a unique Brexit/UK phenomenon which means if we still had large-scale EU immigration the chances of any employer suddenly finding the funds to increase wages to offset the rising costs would reduce.

Please, don't fall into the strawman trap of making this about 'British jobs for British workers', it's about listening to those who have been completely disenfranchised and abandoned by our political establishment/economic model for decades, supported by both Tory and Labour governments. 'Decent wages for all workers' should be a principle we can all agree on.

So the logic in the mind of a Brexiteer was that because corporations and businesses were so pro remain that this must mean that Brexit must be a good thing?!

Actually it just means that these corporations like most other businesses in the UK actually understand economics, demographics and the challenges that we have in the UK, and that its better for business and trade to be inside the EU than outside of it!

However if you want to talk about tax evasion then thats a better topic because the UK is the worlds leader in tax havens, in fact British tax havens are responsible for something like 29 percent of the $245bn in tax the world loses to corporations, and, this has nothing to do with the EU!

I actually found it interesting to look at the tax affairs of some of the biggest backers of Brexit, like the owner of the Daily Mail Viscount Rothermere who has a non-domicile tax status, lives in France and owns his business through a complex network of offshore holdings and trusts or Christopher Harbourne who lives in Thailand, had multiple entries in the panama papers due to his off shore holdings and donated something like £12 million to the Brexit party. Why would high net worth individuals like that, that don't live in the UK, and have all of their money in UK offshore tax havens be so patriotically Pro-British and anti EU? I will leave you to work that out!

With regard to the question about finding money to put wages up its not about being able to afford to do it its about not being able to afford not to do it! You already produced a bit of evidence to show that wages are rising fastest in sectors where employers previously relied on workers from the European Union, so Brexit clearly is impacting businesses like mine by your own admission! Businesses will fund this through a variety of ways, put prices up, take on more dept or cut costs. Prices can only go so high before things become unaffordable and debt has become more expensive, not as easily obtainable and not sustainable in the longer term.Cost cutting unfortunately often means laying off staff so I can see this whole situation unfortunately quickly moving from a tight labour market to mass unemployment. I suspect with your fixed views (and even if you lost your job) you still wouldn't find it within yourself to admit that Brexit was a mistake.

nicko31 · Feb 20, 2023

Sunak in fairness is trying to find a way through the NI Protocol issue.

Meanwhile the disgraced law breaking liar is trying to stir the shit in the hope they'll be something in it for him

West Hoathly Seagull · Feb 20, 2023

nicko31 said:
Sunak in fairness is trying to find a way through the NI Protocol issue.

Meanwhile the disgraced law breaking liar is trying to stir the shit in the hope they'll be something in it for him

He's on his way back, isn't he?

Government to hold new talks with EU on NI protocol ‘in coming days’, says foreign secretary – as it happened

James Cleverly’s comments come after No 10 said ‘no deal has been done as yet’

www.theguardian.com

Tories get an absolute shellacking in the May local elections, which I think they will, and the letters will go in to the 1922 Committee. He will get the number of votes he needs this time, and be a shoo in with the members. My fear is that the British electorate will go for him again in 2024.

WATFORD zero · Feb 20, 2023

I'm hoping that these current NI negotiations will finally mark the point whereby the drive for complete and utter idiocy abates and we start the turnaround to slowly head back towards some sort of common sense

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Brexit and political turmoil hindered investment in UK, minister concedes