[Politics] Brexit

[JC Footy Genius]

Will we get a referendum on renewing Trident at £200bn?

Seems a more important decision to me in all honesty. Not sure why EU membership is a public decision whereas so many decisions are not. Could have probably saved the doctors striking too if we could have all told the Hunt what he needed to do. As Richard Dawkins was quoted the other day “It is an outrage that people as ignorant as me are being asked to vote. This is a complicated matter.”.

Membership of the EU is a fundamental question about who has the power to governs us ...democracy, sovereignty etc. After hearing many ignorant politicians on all sides making inaccurate, misleading statements I'm not sure they are any better placed to make the right decision. Perhaps the Swiss model would be a better option.

 

[Maldini]

The Leave campaign says that if Britain votes to come out of the EU the government should do the following by 2020:

End the automatic right of all EU citizens to come to live and work in the UK

2020?Stuff that. The automatic right should end on June 24th.

 

[El Presidente]

Perhaps the Swiss model would be a better option.

I Googled Swiss model JC and came up with this. Definitely a better option

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I Googled Swiss model JC and came up with this. Definitely a better option

She gets my vote ..

 

[Jim in the West]

This thread seems to be dominated by talk of economics.Let's talk about 333.000 net migration.Let's talk about the 123.000 Brits who moved abroad so in fact we have had at least 456.000 migrants move here in the last year and that doesn't even include all of the illegals.

Let's talk about schools,hospitals,housing and how we are going to cope.Do we have enough police.Do we have enough roads,infrastructure.Can London for example cope seeing as that's where so many migrants are going.Is it right that parts of London and other parts of the UK are dominated by migrants.

Let's talk about what's important and not be selfish and talk about the pounds in our pocket like some seem to be obsessed by.

Personally I find it particularly galling that such an important matter (our membership of the EU) has been hi-jacked by the immigration issue. Having lost all the other arguments, Brexit campaigners are intent on waging a war of fear, based around their own narrow-minded xenophobia. Newspapers like the Sun, Daily Mail, Express, etc are going to carry on their horrible hate-filled anti-immigrant rhetoric in a desperate attempt to turn us against our fellow citizens. Trump and his bandwagon are doing the same in the US. Let's please stop hating each other, and get back to what being British really means - which is tolerant, welcoming, and open to the outside world.

 

[Trufflehound]

Personally I find it particularly galling that such an important matter (our membership of the EU) has been hi-jacked by the immigration issue. Having lost all the other arguments, Brexit campaigners are intent on waging a war of fear, based around their own narrow-minded xenophobia. Newspapers like the Sun, Daily Mail, Express, etc are going to carry on their horrible hate-filled anti-immigrant rhetoric in a desperate attempt to turn us against our fellow citizens. Trump and his bandwagon are doing the same in the US. Let's please stop hating each other, and get back to what being British really means - which is tolerant, welcoming, and open to the outside world.

Hear, hear.

The way the campaign is headed we will merely learn on June 23rd how many xenophobes there are in the UK.

I'm not optimistic.

 

[Jim in the West]

2020?Stuff that. The automatic right should end on June 24th.

It will take far longer than 2020, by the way. And it may not happen EVER.....even if we vote for a Brexit, the majority of MPs will be pro-EU, and the Boris/Gove axis will have a tough job on its hands. The Tory party will no doubt disintegrate in the aftermath of a Brexit vote, and - with Boris as prime minister - will be a much smaller body. We may even end up with a general election, and the Boris-led Tory party will be aligned with UKIP on the far right, whilst everyone else is in the middle. A Brexit vote could easily lead to a pro-EU coalition government

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Personally I find it particularly galling that such an important matter (our membership of the EU) has been hi-jacked by the immigration issue. Having lost all the other arguments, Brexit campaigners are intent on waging a war of fear, based around their own narrow-minded xenophobia. Newspapers like the Sun, Daily Mail, Express, etc are going to carry on their horrible hate-filled anti-immigrant rhetoric in a desperate attempt to turn us against our fellow citizens. Trump and his bandwagon are doing the same in the US. Let's please stop hating each other, and get back to what being British really means - which is tolerant, welcoming, and open to the outside world.

I love the way the Remain camp are fine with their side waging a war of fear based on speculative economic doomsday forecasts but don't like it when Leave fight back. They also conveniently ignore their side using similar tactics for their purposes (Calais camps moving to Kent). Utter hypocrisy. Remain know rates of EU immigration are uncontrollable if we stay, they cannot win this argument, the polls are closing so they have to resort to the old nasty racists line. Having concern about the rate of immigration and the changes/pressures it brings is completely legitimate and a major issue for the UK public. Leave want all immigrants no matter what part of the world they come from to be treated equally unlike Remain who support preferential treatment for Europeans. The best way to increase intolerance is to ignore this major issue or try and close down the debate because you can't argue on the facts.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Cameron and Osborne have been showing contempt for the entire population of the UK with Project Fear since campaigning began so I guess I'm in good company.

I'll assume if I went through all of your post's I will find nothing but civility towards Brexiter's.

Actually, I do try!

The term 'Project Fear' was invented by Boris and is used by the Leave campaign as a label to cover every economic and other prediction that doesn't suit its narrative, whoever it is made by and however accurate it might be. The current anti-immigrant bile being poured out by Richard Desmond, the Barclay Brothers and the Brexit Buddies at the Daily Mail is far more more obnoxious in my view.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I love the way the Remain camp are fine with their side waging a war of fear based on speculative economic doomsday forecasts but don't like it when Leave fight back. They also conveniently ignore their side using similar tactics for their purposes (Calais camps moving to Kent). Utter hypocrisy. Remain know rates of EU immigration are uncontrollable if we stay, they cannot win this argument, the polls are closing so they have to resort to the old nasty racists line. Having concern about the rate of immigration and the changes/pressures it brings is completely legitimate and a major issue for the UK public. Leave want all immigrants no matter what part of the world they come from to be treated equally unlike Remain who support preferential treatment for Europeans. The best way to increase intolerance is to ignore this major issue or try and close down the debate because you can't argue on the facts.

If you think there is an equivalence between raising the possibility of a (relatively) small migrant camp moving from Calais to Kent and the stuff being poured out by the tabloids (how many millions of Turks will be here shortly?) then I'm surprised.

 

[pastafarian]

Personally I find it particularly galling that such an important matter (our membership of the EU) has been hi-jacked by the immigration issue. Having lost all the other arguments, Brexit campaigners are intent on waging a war of fear, based around their own narrow-minded xenophobia. Newspapers like the Sun, Daily Mail, Express, etc are going to carry on their horrible hate-filled anti-immigrant rhetoric in a desperate attempt to turn us against our fellow citizens. Trump and his bandwagon are doing the same in the US. Let's please stop hating each other, and get back to what being British really means - which is tolerant, welcoming, and open to the outside world.

whats really galling are those still wanting the immigration debate silenced

75% of the country want immigration reduced
the subject is always in the top 5 concerns regarding Europe
Its a very important issue.

You want to Remain and not discuss immigration,you consider it an issue for the far right and xenophobes.

For years in this country this very same thinking was peddled and would not allow the subject to even be discussed without shouts of racists,xenophobes and far right loons.
Until of course this thinking led to a backlash and people said enough is enough,step forward a few years and realise that mind set contributed to the rise in UKIP and the reason we now have a referendum.

So whilst it makes you feel uncomfortable and perhaps even "triggered",all i can say is thanks for your contribution to getting a referendum but tough crap,you should have thought about that earlier.
Suck it up,the immigration question is now here front and centre to stay.......there are no more "safe space" hiding places left for you to ignore the issue.

 

[Norman Potting]

If is was today as it is chucking it down with rain I don't think I would bother.

 

[larus]

I want to vote out but I'm worried our government would scrap all our rights and screw the poor into oblivion.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

True. Exactly as is happening in Greece really - oh!

 

[cunning fergus]

Under the rules each country is allowed to designate two lower rates of VAT below top rate for special things such as food, the lowest of which is suppposed to be 5%, so that may be the exemption you speak of that's under review (note, in your words, "under review". "Under review" does not automatically mean "raised" - just ask the millions of employees whose salaries have come "under review".)

Moreover, the same EU rule only stipulates that the top rate of VAT must be "at least 15%", and that Member States are free to set their own rates within these simple guidelines (which were set in an attempt to level the playing field fairly across Europe). In other words, the UK government is perfectly at liberty now, with no pressure at all from Brussels, to reduce the top rate on all those other goods and services you speak of from 20% to 15%. If it wanted to. The fact it hasn't is the UK government not giving not giving a shit, not the EC.

And all this is a UK national VAT, with the money going to the UK national government. Despite your repeated attempts to imply there is some kind of devious "EU VAT" levied being directly by Brussels, I am yet to find any evidence of such. If it exists I would be interested to read about it. Please can you provide me with some links. Thanks.

List of VAT rates in EU countries: http://www.vatlive.com/vat-rates/eu...://www.google.nl&lastReferrer=www.vatlive.com

No problem, I like scepticism,so here's a couple for you....

http://forbritain.org/euvat.pdf

https://fullfact.org/europe/does-uk-pay-fifth-vat-going-eu-budget/

What is not in doubt then is that via the EU VAT contribution the UK must make the EU benefit is enormous. It is also evident the costs of services the are subject to VAT would either be lower if we left the EU or used to support the BRITISH poor or public services. This is great news for the poor and those that use public services.

All the while the UK is a member it will dutifully pay over taxpayers money, and yet the taxpayers have no say where it goes......countries have gone to war for "taxation without representation" before......some leaders should remember that.

Any Road, we are a nation currently borrowing billions to balance our budget. Handing UK taxpayers money over to an unelected institution to lavish on corpulent foreign farmers to do nothing is madness and beyond justification.

I am sure you agree......

 

[5ways]

an odd conclusion
many EU citizens have lived for decades in their own country only to move up sticks to somewhere else.
5 years is much less of an emotional tie to one place after someone has gained the EU passport.

The point still stands,your idea that the migration crisis is nothing to do with EU membership is false.They are linked and as we dont control our borders with the EU we would continue to have no control of EU numbers

It is not a clear path from Greek shores to England. We can't entirely insulates ourselves from the crisis in the middle east.

 

[Maldini]

Personally I find it particularly galling that such an important matter (our membership of the EU) has been hi-jacked by the immigration issue. Having lost all the other arguments, Brexit campaigners are intent on waging a war of fear, based around their own narrow-minded xenophobia. Newspapers like the Sun, Daily Mail, Express, etc are going to carry on their horrible hate-filled anti-immigrant rhetoric in a desperate attempt to turn us against our fellow citizens. Trump and his bandwagon are doing the same in the US. Let's please stop hating each other, and get back to what being British really means - which is tolerant, welcoming, and open to the outside world.

Why do you assume people on the leave side hate migrants? Why do those on the remain side always come up with this and call the leave side racist? As for Trump,he's not doing too bad is he.

 

[Maldini]

Actually, I do try!

Try but not succeed?

 

[cunning fergus]

I want to vote out but I'm worried our government would scrap all our rights and screw the poor into oblivion.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

To some extent you are right, Labour commitment to Tory ideology is why they are so damaged no, at the moment they offer nothing different.

However we stand a better chance to change the UK for the better by leaving the EU , as it is a rejection of neo liberalism.

Stay in and we will get the successor to TTIP, leave and accept that no Govt would dare impose policies like the privatisation of public services even if they had a majority.

 

[Maldini]

Actually, I do try!

The term 'Project Fear' was invented by Boris and is used by the Leave campaign as a label to cover every economic and other prediction that doesn't suit its narrative, whoever it is made by and however accurate it might be. The current anti-immigrant bile being poured out by Richard Desmond, the Barclay Brothers and the Brexit Buddies at the Daily Mail is far more more obnoxious in my view.

So the term Project Fear is unjustified even though Cam and Os have told us if we leave we will all be broke,have WW3,our pensions will die,plus Benedict Cumberbatch won't be able to make any more crap films with EU money.

 

[Horton's halftime iceberg]

Why do you assume people on the leave side hate migrants? Why do those on the remain side always come up with this and call the leave side racist? As for Trump,he's not doing too bad is he.

Err because a lot of UKIP et al have certainly done a lot to show they are, just check what their party members and politicians have said, far too much to put up.

Like Farage I am amazed at how far Trump can get as a super rich privileged person without being found out for what they represent and stand for personally,