Mike Dean

Easy 10 · Feb 9, 2021

Gwylan said:
What I don't understand is how refs can look at an incident half a dozen times, in slow motion and from several different angles and still get it wrong.

The two Dean red cards this week were supported by another ref and with the benefit of VAR: getting it wrong in those circumstances should get him questioning whether he's still up for it

This, for me, was always going to be a major issue when they introduced VAR.

Pre-VAR, when a ref got it wrong you'd still have a moan and grizzle about it, but it would to an extent be "forgiven", because they were making a call on an incident at full speed, having only had the opportunity to see it once. And its a bloody hard job to get every call accurate in those circs.

Now that you've got TWO herberts pouring over it in slow-motion, from every conceivable angle, and they STILL manage to nause it up, then you really have to question whats the point of having VAR.

Mix in the pathetic offside pixel-calls, and I'd happily see it binned off completely. But then that was my stance before they even brought this whole mess in.

Swansman · Feb 9, 2021

bhanutz said:
My job is difficult too... If I was shit at it, I would expect to lose it... These are professionals. It is their only job, they get help by looking at replays. I dont have much sympathy bar the obvious threats etc.

Before they had replays, you didnt have any complaints?

Gwylan · Feb 9, 2021

Easy 10 said:
Mix in the pathetic offside pixel-calls, and I'd happily see it binned off completely. But then that was my stance before they even brought this whole mess in.

And mine. I loathe it and think it's added nothing to football. It works well in cricket but that's because there's a natural break to the game and because the technology is excellent. Not sure whether there's a nick? Ultra Edge will do the job? Is it going to hit? Ask Ball Tracker.

What's more, they've covered grey areas by introducing Umpire's Call, so if there's any doubt, it's instantly resolved and everyone accepts it.

I don't think VAR will ever enhance football but the FA has made such a pig's ear of its introduction, it's worse than anyone expected.

bhanutz · Feb 9, 2021

Swansman said:
Before they had replays, you didnt have any complaints?

Not sure what you are trying to get at?

Herr Ing Gull · Feb 9, 2021

bhanutz said:
My job is difficult too... If I was shit at it, I would expect to lose it... These are professionals. It is their only job, they get help by looking at replays. I dont have much sympathy bar the obvious threats etc.

If your job involves making several hundred decisions in 90 minutes whilst running around a patch of grass, probably in the pouring rain, and getting them all right, then, I agree with you.

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bhanutz · Feb 9, 2021

Herr Ing Gull said:
If your job involves making several hundred decisions in 90 minutes whilst running around a patch of grass, probably in the pouring rain, and getting them all right, then, I agree with you.

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Joker

rogersix · Feb 10, 2021

Gwylan said:
And mine. I loathe it and think it's added nothing to football. It works well in cricket but that's because there's a natural break to the game and because the technology is excellent. Not sure whether there's a nick? Ultra Edge will do the job? Is it going to hit? Ask Ball Tracker.

What's more, they've covered grey areas by introducing Umpire's Call, so if there's any doubt, it's instantly resolved and everyone accepts it.

I don't think VAR will ever enhance football but the FA has made such a pig's ear of its introduction, it's worse than anyone expected.

this,

and i do think we should expect a bit more fitness, and a lot more competence and consistency for £200k p.a.

scamander · Feb 10, 2021

All VAR has done, in one respect, is give the ref a viewpoint which all the pundits have had for years.

Perhaps they can balance things out. If a pundit gets a call wrong rather than joke about it they can suspend them for a few matches. Pundits and the like are mostly ex-players and have been effective at eroding the respect for officials for a number of years.

Sky was analysing referee errors, sorry "talking points" (notice how they all use that term) and set the agenda for VAR to come in as a response. They now spend most of the game moaning about how they are talking about VAR again (they could choose not to).

As others have pointed out VAR is often only highlighting how the rules don't track well with technology and that other sports are more suited to it as most of the time the ball is dead when it's being consulted. The realisation that refs might get it wrong is weirdly not acceptable in football as much as it is elsewhere. Perhaps this is what needs to change.

Lower West Stander · Feb 10, 2021

scamander said:
All VAR has done, in one respect, is give the ref a viewpoint which all the pundits have had for years.

Perhaps they can balance things out. If a pundit gets a call wrong rather than joke about it they can suspend them for a few matches. Pundits and the like are mostly ex-players and have been effective at eroding the respect for officials for a number of years.

Sky was analysing referee errors, sorry "talking points" (notice how they all use that term) and set the agenda for VAR to come in as a response. They now spend most of the game moaning about how they are talking about VAR again (they could choose not to).

As others have pointed out VAR is often only highlighting how the rules don't track well with technology and that other sports are more suited to it as most of the time the ball is dead when it's being consulted. The realisation that refs might get it wrong is weirdly not acceptable in football as much as it is elsewhere. Perhaps this is what needs to change.

Good points all.

The problem is that VAR is causing more problems than its solving. If referees are getting suspended for still getting it wrong then it’s not serving its purpose.

The pundit stuff is no different from any journo banging on about tactics or players after a game. There is no accountability with them and it was ever thus. This will never change and VAR has merely become the focus rather than the decision itself.

I just don’t think it has worked. Rubbish refs like Dean will be rubbish whether there is VAR or not.

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JBizzle · Feb 10, 2021

Lower West Stander said:
Good points all.

The problem is that VAR is causing more problems than its solving. If referees are getting suspended for still getting it wrong then it’s not serving its purpose.

The pundit stuff is no different from any journo banging on about tactics or players after a game. There is no accountability with them and it was ever thus. This will never change and VAR has merely become the focus rather than the decision itself.

I just don’t think it has worked. Rubbish refs like Dean will be rubbish whether there is VAR or not.

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The thing is, the standard to which refereeing is held is INSANE. I actually feel bad for the refs in the top flight. Every single move, every decision, every non-decision is contested on the field and off the field. 6' 5" 16st players go down and roll around like a sniper has taken them out at the slightest of touches. VAR gives angles and slow mo that make natural movements and collisions look intentional and red card offences.

As a rule, they get most decisions right without a word of acknowledgement but the ones they get wrong are combed over forever.

- For those in the "just doing their job, why should they get praise for doing it right" brigade: I have no idea what environment you work in but praise is an important part of keeping people motivated in most walks of life.
- For those in the "I'd get sacked if I made a mistake" brigade, I'm glad I don't work where you do

I get as passionately frustrated with the inconsistency of referring, the decisions that don't make sense, and the flatly ludicrous ones as the rest of you, but a top flight referee's job is nigh on impossible in the currently climate within the game.

WilburySeagull · Feb 10, 2021

JBizzle said:
The thing is, the standard to which refereeing is held is INSANE. I actually feel bad for the refs in the top flight. Every single move, every decision, every non-decision is contested on the field and off the field. 6' 5" 16st players go down and roll around like a sniper has taken them out at the slightest of touches. VAR gives angles and slow mo that make natural movements and collisions look intentional and red card offences.

As a rule, they get most decisions right without a word of acknowledgement but the ones they get wrong are combed over forever.

- For those in the "just doing their job, why should they get praise for doing it right" brigade: I have no idea what environment you work in but praise is an important part of keeping people motivated in most walks of life.
- For those in the "I'd get sacked if I made a mistake" brigade, I'm glad I don't work where you do

I get as passionately frustrated with the inconsistency of referring, the decisions that don't make sense, and the flatly ludicrous ones as the rest of you, but a top flight referee's job is nigh on impossible in the currently climate within the game.

Agree with all this. Never seen a job in which no mistakes were made. Players have become part time actors. Its particularly poor when they go down clutching their heads when contact was nowhere near the head. Commentators pretend to dislike it bit then say players must go down if they feel contact in the penalty area. The whole culture of the game is poisoned by the amount of money in it.

Questions · Feb 10, 2021

WilburySeagull said:
Agree with all this. Never seen a job in which no mistakes were made. Players have become part time actors. Its particularly poor when they go down clutching their heads when contact was nowhere near the head. Commentators pretend to dislike it bit then say players must go down if they feel contact in the penalty area. The whole culture of the game is poisoned by the amount of money in it.

Its not just the money it’s the lack of morality out there.

Eddiespearritt · Feb 10, 2021

nicko31 said:
Dean has had his day, second major blunder in a week. Needs to retire

No idea what retirement age is for refs these days - but I always remember it being somewhere in the 40s - I think at age 47.

Mike Dean is 52 - and it is beginning to show. The Soucek decision was bizarre - anyone who has played football could see there was no malice in it - possibly even that nice Mr Mitrovic caused it - but Dean looked at it dozens of times, at normal speed and in slow motion, and still came up with the decision to send him off. It was, for me, extraordinary and not really an understandable error of judgement.

scamander · Feb 10, 2021

The irony of the Soucek decision is that Mitrovic dived and rolled about. When he realised that Soucek was safely red carded he then decided nothing had happened.

Perhaps not dive and roll around in the first place?

FannieMac · Feb 10, 2021

Mike Dean

rippleman · Feb 10, 2021

clapham_gull said:
A terrible mistake that made VAR a laughing stock, but I really like Mike Dean. There I said it.

Plays up to the "pantomime villain role" sometimes because he knows we all love a pantomime villain, especially if they are a referee.

If you haven't already, watch some interviews he has given. You might change your mind.

There is too much at stake at EPL level for Dean to be arsing about playing a "pantomime villain". Incorrect sending offs - off which he has been guilty twice in a week - can significantly impact a game. Yes, the red is rescinded or overturned but the result of that match is likely to be impacted.

Let us not forget that Mike Dean is a PROFESSIONAL. He gets to make a good living from it and he should show the game and the players far more respect.

I qualified as a referee at about 14 reffing youth, Sunday league, few County combinations and then womens football for some years and as such I agree with Swanny, it's bloody hard. When I was being trained up by Denis Constable (who some may recall as a pub landlord in Brighton for many years) I remember him telling us "The game is not about you. If nobody notices you, you have had the perfect game".

Mike Dean should heed those wise words. It's not about him. But I fear his arrogance and determination to be the centre of attention will prevail.

(Oh, and Dean's "off you pop" comment when sending off Dunk was unprofessional. Talking to a player like that when I was in the middle was asking for a smack)

Easy 10 · Feb 10, 2021

scamander said:
The irony of the Soucek decision is that Mitrovic dived and rolled about. When he realised that Soucek was safely red carded he then decided nothing had happened.

Perhaps not dive and roll around in the first place?

Players are hard-wired to go down as soon as they feel contact, especially on the face. Mitrovic was literally on the deck before he even knew how "hard" he'd been hit - its the default reaction, designed primarily to get your opponent into trouble. In this instance - job done.

I suspect Mitrovic knew he'd barely been touched, then saw the red card coming and maybe felt a pang of guilt, along with the realisation that he'd be getting post-match pelters from all sides when everyone saw what a fairy he'd been. A lame attempt to stick up for Soucek ensued to try to deflect this.

Too late, you scabby cheating twunt. When idiots and cheats are mixed together, this is the result.

clapham_gull · Feb 10, 2021

rippleman said:
Talking to a player like that when I was in the middle was asking for a smack)

rippleman said:
PROFESSIONAL

schmunk · Feb 10, 2021

scamander said:
The irony of the Soucek decision is that Mitrovic dived and rolled about. When he realised that Soucek was safely red carded he then decided nothing had happened.

Perhaps not dive and roll around in the first place?

He was, to be fair, actually elbowed in the face - just not, it seems, maliciously.

AmexRuislip · Feb 10, 2021

You always feel that Mike Dean has a career in panto, once he retires.

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