Brentford stop taking the knee.

[Guinness Boy]

Yes, they’re opportunists. They need violence and they need people to be oppressed. They’re not there to actually help blacks, gays, transgender etc. They’re there to whip them up if possible, to marginalise the peaceful protestors and promote the more radical. Also, to provoke others to attack them.

They want chaos and will happily use marginalised groups to achieve that.

Swap Marxists for the Alt Right and "blacks gays, transgender" for "white males" and you've basically got the Footy Lads or the anti lockdown protests.

Is it though?

(You're right that it said White Lives Matter though. Apologies for error.)

I'd stick with All Lives Matter but that'd be enough to be torn apart on Twitter.

Perhaps we should just assume they all do. I think 99.5% of people already do.

You're sticking with something factually incorrect to make yourself look a little less racist?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Not just Zaha and Les, Carlton Cole has a point that plenty of black players are losing respect for TTK because nothing’s changed in that they’re still getting abused online.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/56140495

His suggestion is that it becomes a choice.

The players voted to do it and they can vote to not do it, I assume. Some of them doing it and others not will have the racists laughing, like they did at the F1 fools, with Hamilton sneered at for taking the knee by his army of haters while the white guys stood around looking bemused.

If the players want to take the advice of Zaha, Les, Cole and Unnamed Others, fine. They know what to do. Propose a vote on it like they did in the first place. One bloke declaring unilaterally that he thinks it would be best to not do it and suggesting it be voluntary is stupid. He needs to overturn the original vote first, so that people can act in an orderly fashion.

I must say I find the idea of black players not taking the knee, as a protest against nothing being done about online trolls, a bit peculiar, though. Maybe I should stop giving money to Amnesty International as a protest at their failure to end torture and oppression. That'll show them.

 

[Beanstalk]

I agree with you.

But let's explore the idea that people feel they are being forced to do it against their will because they are fearful of the reaction they would get if they stopped doing it. Well....that means that they don't want to do it, surely? The next question (I would ask such a player) is why don't you want to take the knee? Perhaps they would say 'it hasn't ended racism; it is just a guesture or; it detracts from all the proactive antiracism work that I personally am undertaking' . . . . .well the third answer, there, has some merit. I wonder how many players could say it, though? But it is rather egocentrical. How does taking the knee for five seconds detract from all the splendid work Zaha is doing in his spare time to fight racism?

It's all bollocks, isn't it. Taking the knee appears to be annoying a lot of racists, and the occasional black player griping about it has been seized on as spurious exemplars of what black people really think, and why it should stop. As you said, the players voted to do this, and they are wise to carry on until they have another vote and decide to stop. As they are free to do.

And in the meantime if Zaha wants to stand, he can fill his boots.

I completely agree with this. Symbols are important in changing views and they make a huge difference in the long term. It is also obvious that the racism is the underlying factor in the argument that taking the knee is a bad move. It is an anti-racist gesture so actively opposing it on the internet is by nature anti-anti-racist at best (obviously we all know what a double negative really is).

I just don't feel that you can combat whataboutery by telling people you can see straight through their argument. If you answer them with a straight bat, the holes in their argument (the falsehoods of this one being that the players don't have a choice etc,) hopefully become clear to anyone flicking through the thread. I'm fully aware that I'm not going to change the posters mind by combatting whataboutery with facts (that no one is being forced to take the knee and the overwhelming majority of footballers have anonymously voted in favour of continuing to take the knee as members of the PFA). They wouldn't be ignoring legitimate answers to their questions otherwise.

 

[RossyG]

Swap Marxists for the Alt Right and "blacks gays, transgender" for "white males" and you've basically got the Footy Lads or the anti lockdown protests.



You're sticking with something factually incorrect to make yourself look a little less racist?

So white lives don’t matter?

 

[Beanstalk]

OK, again - what would have happened if a club or set of players said no we don't want to because we don't feel this is the best way to go?

Do you think there would have been no backlash at all?

I'd point to the answer [MENTION=3166]keaton[/MENTION] gave below your post - very little has happened to those teams.

But as I said, had they done it at the start of the movement I think a lot of fans would've rightfully questioned why they weren't willing to stand by the idea that black lives do actually matter. At the start of all this, whatever you think now, it was very much about uniting against racism. If a club decided not to do so they would've rightly been asked why on earth they stood, at least symbolically, against that.

The reality is that didn't happen. I repeat; up until recently there has been no signs of any dissent against taking the knee. Any disengagement with the action has been about a lack of anti-racist action not the message itself.

In short, your question has a very logical answer. Had, when the statement was, without intricacies, do black people's lives matter? Any club who actively championed no as the answer would have been seen as taking a stance against anti-racism.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Not sure if it's been mentioned already, just food for thought but James Maclean, Stoke player gets alot of criticism for not wearing the poppy. Surely he's doing exactly what people are saying on the taking the knee issue? He shouldn't be forced into it so why are the rules different ?

I don't think they are different (and there are no 'rules', just expectations). The trope here is that some/many/most white players are taking the knee to avoid criticism, and some/many/most black players are doing it through gritted teeth because they think we white people think they are just silly black people and we have no intention of doing anything proper to end racism.

I think these tropes are bullshit.

As I've said repeatedly when the players decide to stop doing it they will have a little vote like they did before and do whatever they feel best. I simply doubt that many feel they are being forced to take the knee. And if I am wrong they are the many cowards for going against their own instincts.

Maclean is certainly not a coward. I do think he's a fool, however. I can conceive of no reason why anyone living and earning in the UK should object to the universal symbol of the poppy, or how someone can justify sucking on the tit of British Money while declaring an apparent loathing for everything we stand for. He's welcome to be a fool, however, and he seems sanguine about the pelters he receives for it. I look forward to watching Zaha show an equivalent courage, which I'm sure he will, a man who has clearly thought through his principled stand.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I can't be bothered to read through this entire thread but I will just assume that a lot of middle-class white people have determined that unless you think exactly the way they do about this issue you are in fact a racist.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I completely agree with this. Symbols are important in changing views and they make a huge difference in the long term. It is also obvious that the racism is the underlying factor in the argument that taking the knee is a bad move. It is an anti-racist gesture so actively opposing it on the internet is by nature anti-anti-racist at best (obviously we all know what a double negative really is).

I just don't feel that you can combat whataboutery by telling people you can see straight through their argument. If you answer them with a straight bat, the holes in their argument (the falsehoods of this one being that the players don't have a choice etc,) hopefully become clear to anyone flicking through the thread. I'm fully aware that I'm not going to change the posters mind by combatting whataboutery with facts (that no one is being forced to take the knee and the overwhelming majority of footballers have anonymously voted in favour of continuing to take the knee as members of the PFA). They wouldn't be ignoring legitimate answers to their questions otherwise.

Indeed.

All this bollocks about Sir Les etc. **** me, people argued Thatcher must be 'right' because Bob Monkhouse, Leslier Crowther and Gary Glitter though she was The Tops. Bit surprised that people are tucking into the 'black players support and end to the knee, so it must be shit' nonsense, though. I find it a bit alarming to be honest. You're right, it is whataboutery!

Until the players have a vote on it I think the likes of Zaha should zip it. Why isn't Zaha lobbying his team mates - all of whom took the knee against us the other day - instead of gobbing off to the media? He's made his team mates look like tits (or is it the otherway round? ).

If the players do vote to stop it, fine. I think the racists have won now, anyway, with fools like Zaha signaling that things like taking the knee are a waste of time. Well done Wilf. Please don't ask me to give my support for any initiatives going forward unless you can prove they will work, then, OK mate?

 

[Beanstalk]

Indeed.

All this bollocks about Sir Les etc. **** me, people argued Thatcher must be 'right' because Bob Monkhouse, Leslier Crowther and Gary Glitter though she was The Tops. Bit surprised that people are tucking into the 'black players support and end to the knee, so it must be shit' nonsense, though. I find it a bit alarming to be honest. You're right, it is whataboutery!

Until the players have a vote on it I think the likes of Zaha should zip it. Why isn't Zaha lobbying his team mates - all of whom took the knee against us the other day - instead of gobbing off to the media? He's made his team mates look like tits (or is it the otherway round? ).

If the players do vote to stop it, fine. I think the racists have won now, anyway, with fools like Zaha signaling that things like taking the knee are a waste of time. Well done Wilf. Please don't ask me to give my support for any initiatives going forward unless you can prove they will work, then, OK mate?

I'm not sure they have won. I don't think they particularly matter in the grand scheme of things at the moment, the last cry of the old order if you like. Zaha might not take the knee anymore but his teammates clearly haven't followed his lead and as I've stated, he might stand, but the captains have decided together to be a united front for the season across the league.

Over the past 12 months in football more kids than ever will have seen players taking a knee, regular FIFA updates about taking a stand against racism and messages on Sky Sports and BT Sports consistently saying that racism, in any form, is unacceptable. There have been no moments of racism in the stands for obvious reasons and being nasty in any form looks a lot less cool without the herd mentality.

For me, the internet trolls are a great example of things seeming like they're worse but perhaps just being more front and centre and that is a good thing. In 1997 people were throwing bananas onto the goldstone pitch at Darren Moore like it was a normal thing to do. Now people are going to court for sending racist messages to Ian Wright. That is a fundamental change that is only going to continue. A whole generation now understand, in very simple terms, that racism is not acceptable. I don't think that has been explicitly stated in English football until this point. It's progress, even if progress is never fast enough.

 

[Guinness Boy]

So white lives don’t matter?

Whataboutery and deflection. What a surprise. You deliberately misrepresented the stunt as towing an "All Lives Matter" banner, which was factually incorrect, and then doubled down on it. Why would you do that?

Still, I'll refer you to the "burning house" analogy which has lost none of its power. There is one single house burning in a long street. Do you train your jet of water on that house, on all the houses in the street or on the nicest and most valuable house on the road even though it's up the other end?

As the Chair of Kick it Out mentioned at the time "the point of Black Lives Matter is not to diminish the importance of other people's lives. It is to highlight that black people are being denied certain human rights simply by virtue of the colour of their skin".

Still, all this "xxxx lives matter" is VERY 2020. The whole point of the knee taking is not to support "BLM" whether it is Marxist infiltrated or not. It is to demonstrate there is no room for racism, both in our lives and in football. Do you agree with that statement?

 

[Randy McNob]

So white lives don’t matter?

are we really doing this again?

 

[RossyG]

Whataboutery and deflection. What a surprise. You deliberately misrepresented the stunt as towing an "All Lives Matter" banner, which was factually incorrect, and then doubled down on it. Why would you do that?

I quite clearly said to the poster, “You're right that it said White Lives Matter though. Apologies for error.”

It’s still there to see. So don’t make out I’m lying.

 

[RossyG]

are we really doing this again?

I’m quite happy to end it here.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FRAC&usg=AOvVaw1_mjkbXBQSsMrlZT2cjVkz&ampcf=1
No surprise some players are not happy taking a knee
Regards
DF

 

[BeHereNow]

I quite clearly said to the poster, “You're right that it said White Lives Matter though. Apologies for error.”

It’s still there to see. So don’t make out I’m lying.

Not like him to do that...

Brentford don’t take the knee anymore? Well done to them!

 

[Guinness Boy]

I quite clearly said to the poster, “You're right that it said White Lives Matter though. Apologies for error.”

It’s still there to see. So don’t make out I’m lying.

Taking a knee is to demonstrate there is no room for racism, both in our lives and in football. Do you agree with that statement?

You appear to have forgotten to answer.

 

[Billy the Fish]

In 1997 people were throwing bananas onto the goldstone pitch at Darren Moore like it was a normal thing to do.

Point of order, you're wrong about this. I was in the crowd that day and it was certainly not considered normal by anyone. One person threw a banana, everyone else was shocked and embarrassed.

I'd heard stories of this happening in the 70s and that's it It was nowhere near normal in 1997, an absolute throwback from one wrong'un.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Not like him to do that...

Brentford don’t take the knee anymore? Well done to them!

QPR , Wall ?
Regards
DF

 

[BeHereNow]

QPR , Wall ?
Regards
DF

Well done to them too. Showed a bit of common sense.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Well done to them too. Showed a bit of common sense.

Footballers are paid ridiculous money to play football not engage in tiresome pantomime keep BLM out of football most people are bored of it
Regards
DF