Brentford stop taking the knee.

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Can you imagine the reaction if a couple of clubs had said "nah, we are ok because we do xyz and we don't believe the knee is the best way to go"

We had a strange situation earlier this season when QPR got called a racist club, which is ridiculous

I don't think they had much choice in the matter at all

Good. I don't care they feel they didn't have much choice.

I see people who oppose the knee 'because it won't change racism' as missing the point. Of course it won't end racism. Being nice to strangers won't stop wars, either. So should we just settle for rudeness?

Nevertheless, I see people who oppose the taking of the knee but want it replaced by something more effective as admirable. If they think players should carry on taking the knee until the fabled 'more substatial change' is effected, then I'm happy with that. But just think about this for a moment. I get the strong impression most of these people feel the first step should be players stopping taking the knee, and all the more substantial changes will then start to happen. Forgive me but I fail to see the reasoning undepinning this. In view of his, QPR's stance was foolish at best.

However I see people who oppopse taking the knee because they are bored or irritated by it as a bit racist.

And I see people who argue that the knee taking is simly going to make non-racist people irritable and perhaps start thinking about taking up racism, as a bit racist.

I ask myself this: What is the cost of taking the knee? And what is the benefit of players unilaterally stopping doing it?

Having pondered this simple cost benefit analysis I deduce that I am happy for knee taking to carry on even if all it is doing is infuriating Trained Racists.

As for 'not having much choice', Wilf, stand if you want to. Refuse a Covid vaccination if you want to. Both are perfectly legal choices in the UK. But be sure of your motives, and consider the consequences.

 

[RossyG]

Why do I think in the height of the BLM marches/movements/outcry the PL clubs/players had any other choice than to do it? - what do you think would have been the response to a club or player that didnt?

I wonder if the pro-BLM camp are actually that clueless or are they just trolling?

Do they really not know that they have the opinion that the masses don't have but far more importantly that those in power, in the police, education, government, and media have and that anyone who dares speak out runs the risk of being destroyed?

A guy flew a banner saying All Lives Matter and after a Twitter witch-hunt he was outed in the media, he was sacked from his job, his girlfriend was sacked from hers, and they had the police on their doorstep.

Are the pro-BLMers blissfully unaware of this? They can't be that naive, can they?

 

[Beanstalk]

Why do I think in the height of the BLM marches/movements/outcry the PL clubs/players had any other choice than to do it? - what do you think would have been the response to a club or player that didnt?

I should add It was the right thing to do at the time, but it should have finished at the start of the season due to loss of impact with other things taking its place.

But that is your opinion. I think it is a powerful gesture, and the overwhelming majority of players have said that they want it to continue. That is their opinion and it is their choice to take the knee. Just because you think it should've stopped doesn't mean the players think that and are being made to kneel against their will

I think in the height of the BLM movement, there was a united front across the entirety of the footballing world that it was the right thing to do. Essentially, at that point, when players first started taking a knee, it was about taking a stand against racism and that was it. It would've been weird for a team to turn around then and say, "nah we disagree with the idea that Black Lives Matter and racism is not an issue for us" when it is such an ingrained part of the game in this country (just look at the Burnley fan's plane, Millwall and Cambridge fans booing, etc.). Any criticism coming out now is not about what happened at the start it's about the sustained length in which it has lasted and the lack of result

It's a player lead initiative and obviously, they felt very differently to you about doing it this season and have committed as a collective to do it for the season. Nobody has been forced to do anything.

 

[WATFORD zero]

So because players aren't doing what you want them to do, it therefor means that they must be getting forced to do the opposite of what you want them to do

 

[Randy McNob]

I wonder if the pro-BLM camp are actually that clueless or are they just trolling?

Do they really not know that they have the opinion that the masses don't have but far more importantly that those in power, in the police, education, government, and media have and that anyone who dares speak out runs the risk of being destroyed?

A guy flew a banner saying All Lives Matter and after a Twitter witch-hunt he was outed in the media, he was sacked from his job, his girlfriend was sacked from hers, and they had the police on their doorstep.

Are the pro-BLMers blissfully unaware of this? They can't be that naive, can they?

fairly sure it said White lives matter which is a little different

 

[RossyG]

fairly sure it said White lives matter which is a little different

Is it though?

(You're right that it said White Lives Matter though. Apologies for error.)

I'd stick with All Lives Matter but that'd be enough to be torn apart on Twitter.

Perhaps we should just assume they all do. I think 99.5% of people already do.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Good. I don't care they feel they didn't have much choice.

I see people who oppose the knee 'because it won't change racism' as missing the point. Of course it won't end racism. Being nice to strangers won't stop wars, either. So should we just settle for rudeness?

Nevertheless, I see people who oppose the taking of the knee but want it replaced by something more effective as admirable. If they think players should carry on taking the knee until the fabled 'more substatial change' is effected, then I'm happy with that. But just think about this for a moment. I get the strong impression most of these people feel the first step should be players stopping taking the knee, and all the more substantial changes will then start to happen. Forgive me but I fail to see the reasoning undepinning this. In view of his, QPR's stance was foolish at best.

However I see people who oppopse taking the knee because they are bored or irritated by it as a bit racist.

And I see people who argue that the knee taking is simly going to make non-racist people irritable and perhaps start thinking about taking up racism, as a bit racist.

I ask myself this: What is the cost of taking the knee? And what is the benefit of players unilaterally stopping doing it?

Having pondered this simple cost benefit analysis I deduce that I am happy for knee taking to carry on even if all it is doing is infuriating Trained Racists.

As for 'not having much choice', Wilf, stand if you want to. Refuse a Covid vaccination if you want to. Both are perfectly legal choices in the UK. But be sure of your motives, and consider the consequences.

Is Les Ferdinand missing the point, I would say he is in a better position than any of us to comment -

The start of the season we had a chance to roll out a whole wave of new localised programmes to fight racism via education in the local area tweaked to match the area aimed at, which would have been much more effective than taking the knee at the start of a game - which a large percentage of people have now switched off from.

Like anything, if you don't freshen it up people just wont pay attention to it, not because they are racist, just because it doesnt grab the attention anymore.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

But that is your opinion. I think it is a powerful gesture, and the overwhelming majority of players have said that they want it to continue. That is their opinion and it is their choice to take the knee. Just because you think it should've stopped doesn't mean the players think that and are being made to kneel against their will

I think in the height of the BLM movement, there was a united front across the entirety of the footballing world that it was the right thing to do. Essentially, at that point, when players first started taking a knee, it was about taking a stand against racism and that was it. It would've been weird for a team to turn around then and say, "nah we disagree with the idea that Black Lives Matter and racism is not an issue for us" when it is such an ingrained part of the game in this country (just look at the Burnley fan's plane, Millwall and Cambridge fans booing, etc.). Any criticism coming out now is not about what happened at the start it's about the sustained length in which it has lasted and the lack of result

It's a player lead initiative and obviously, they felt very differently to you about doing it this season and have committed as a collective to do it for the season. Nobody has been forced to do anything.

OK, again - what would have happened if a club or set of players said no we don't want to because we don't feel this is the best way to go?

Do you think there would have been no backlash at all?

 

[keaton]

OK, again - what would have happened if a club or set of players said no we don't want to because we don't feel this is the best way to go?

I don't know, what's happened to QPR and Brentford? Is the answer very little?

 

[drew]

Good. I don't care they feel they didn't have much choice.

I see people who oppose the knee 'because it won't change racism' as missing the point. Of course it won't end racism. Being nice to strangers won't stop wars, either. So should we just settle for rudeness?

Nevertheless, I see people who oppose the taking of the knee but want it replaced by something more effective as admirable. If they think players should carry on taking the knee until the fabled 'more substatial change' is effected, then I'm happy with that. But just think about this for a moment. I get the strong impression most of these people feel the first step should be players stopping taking the knee, and all the more substantial changes will then start to happen. Forgive me but I fail to see the reasoning undepinning this. In view of his, QPR's stance was foolish at best.

However I see people who oppopse taking the knee because they are bored or irritated by it as a bit racist.

And I see people who argue that the knee taking is simly going to make non-racist people irritable and perhaps start thinking about taking up racism, as a bit racist.

I ask myself this: What is the cost of taking the knee? And what is the benefit of players unilaterally stopping doing it?

Having pondered this simple cost benefit analysis I deduce that I am happy for knee taking to carry on even if all it is doing is infuriating Trained Racists.

As for 'not having much choice', Wilf, stand if you want to. Refuse a Covid vaccination if you want to. Both are perfectly legal choices in the UK. But be sure of your motives, and consider the consequences.

Taking the knee is meaningless if nothing is being done to actually effect change in institutions/society etc. Maybe clubs not taking the knee will be more noticed and bring more pressure to bear as it keeps it in the spotlight. It's a bit like the impotent FA Respect campaign. Pre covid, players shook hands with their opponents and the officials and then many, for the next 90 odd minutes, would do their best to cheat, abuse the others and basically act in a very disrespectful way. No sign whatsoever that the FA are going to implement anything to improve the situation but you can bet your bottom dollar that when we're back to normal, they'll be shaking hands again and nothing will have changed.

That said, when things are back to normal then we may see more marches and protests that will drive change.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Is Les Ferdinand missing the point, I would say he is in a better position than any of us to comment -

The start of the season we had a chance to roll out a whole wave of new localised programmes to fight racism via education in the local area tweaked to match the area aimed at, which would have been much more effective than taking the knee at the start of a game - which a large percentage of people have now switched off from.

Like anything, if you don't freshen it up people just wont pay attention to it, not because they are racist, just because it doesnt grab the attention anymore.

If he thinks it is a good idea the whole of football unilaterally stop taking the knee just because QPR does a bit in the community then I think he is very certainly missing the point. Did he not come out with all this months ago?

Here's a thought: maybe not all black people are correct in what they say about dealing with racism all the time

Here's another thought: maybe the black guy who seems to have a view that differes from most other black guys (not including Zaha, of course) maybe the one that'st wrong. Just a thought

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Taking the knee is meaningless if nothing is being done to actually effect change in institutions/society etc. Maybe clubs not taking the knee will be more noticed and bring more pressure to bear as it keeps it in the spotlight. It's a bit like the impotent FA Respect campaign. Pre covid, players shook hands with their opponents and the officials and then many, for the next 90 odd minutes, would do their best to cheat, abuse the others and basically act in a very disrespectful way. No sign whatsoever that the FA are going to implement anything to improve the situation but you can bet your bottom dollar that when we're back to normal, they'll be shaking hands again and nothing will have changed.

That said, when things are back to normal then we may see more marches and protests that will drive change.

I agree in essence although I would say 'ineffective' rather than 'meaningless'. It is very meaningful, but if nothing happens it is ineffecive,

As it happens I suspect it will be labeled as ineffective by some if racism doesn't end by the end of the year. Now, that's obviously an absurdly exacting requirement. But it allows people to say that taking the knee is ineffective. And indeed as a consequence, meaningless.

So taking the knee could be argued to be is meaningless if it fails to triggers an end to racism. Or, let's be less exacting, it will be meaningless if it fails to contribute to movement in the right direction, maybe making a few people consider their racism, maybe tone down their behaviour? Surely that's a worthy goal and would constitute a result, though, justifying continuing taking the knee.

Bottom line, I don't think here is any need to get too nuanced about what one hopes taking the knee will achieve. And I don't think an expectation that it won't achieve much is sufficient reason to stop doing it. As I have said, it annoys the racists and that is sufficient reason to carry on. And I'm sure that 5 seconds a game is no hardship, unless players are worried about repetitive knee strain injury

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

But that is your opinion. I think it is a powerful gesture, and the overwhelming majority of players have said that they want it to continue. That is their opinion and it is their choice to take the knee. Just because you think it should've stopped doesn't mean the players think that and are being made to kneel against their will

I think in the height of the BLM movement, there was a united front across the entirety of the footballing world that it was the right thing to do. Essentially, at that point, when players first started taking a knee, it was about taking a stand against racism and that was it. It would've been weird for a team to turn around then and say, "nah we disagree with the idea that Black Lives Matter and racism is not an issue for us" when it is such an ingrained part of the game in this country (just look at the Burnley fan's plane, Millwall and Cambridge fans booing, etc.). Any criticism coming out now is not about what happened at the start it's about the sustained length in which it has lasted and the lack of result

It's a player lead initiative and obviously, they felt very differently to you about doing it this season and have committed as a collective to do it for the season. Nobody has been forced to do anything.

I agree with you.

But let's explore the idea that people feel they are being forced to do it against their will because they are fearful of the reaction they would get if they stopped doing it. Well....that means that they don't want to do it, surely? The next question (I would ask such a player) is why don't you want to take the knee? Perhaps they would say 'it hasn't ended racism; it is just a guesture or; it detracts from all the proactive antiracism work that I personally am undertaking' . . . . .well the third answer, there, has some merit. I wonder how many players could say it, though? But it is rather egocentrical. How does taking the knee for five seconds detract from all the splendid work Zaha is doing in his spare time to fight racism?

It's all bollocks, isn't it. Taking the knee appears to be annoying a lot of racists, and the occasional black player griping about it has been seized on as spurious exemplars of what black people really think, and why it should stop. As you said, the players voted to do this, and they are wise to carry on until they have another vote and decide to stop. As they are free to do.

And in the meantime if Zaha wants to stand, he can fill his boots.

 

[Swansman]

I agree in essence although I would say 'ineffective' rather than 'meaningless'. It is very meaningful, but if nothing happens it is ineffecive,

As it happens I suspect it will be labeled as ineffective by some if racism doesn't end by the end of the year. Now, that's obviously an absurdly exacting requirement. But it allows people to say that taking the knee is ineffective. And indeed as a consequence, meaningless.

So taking the knee could be argued to be is meaningless if it fails to triggers an end to racism. Or, let's be less exacting, it will be meaningless if it fails to contribute to movement in the right direction, maybe making a few people consider their racism, maybe tone down their behaviour? Surely that's a worthy goal and would constitute a result, though, justifying continuing taking the knee.

Bottom line, I don't think here is any need to get too nuanced about what one hopes taking the knee will achieve. And I don't think an expectation that it won't achieve much is sufficient reason to stop doing it. As I have said, it annoys the racists and that is sufficient reason to carry on. And I'm sure that 5 seconds a game is no hardship, unless players are worried about repetitive knee strain injury

Its not how it happens. The way to end or reduce racism is to educate people and to create opportunities for "different races" to meet eachother in real life. Forcefeeding it by some gesture made by a stranger playing football is not going to change anything. There is no racist out there who is going to watch people take the knee and think "hmm, maybe the races are equal after all". Getting a black co-worker or crush all these fancy all-white private schools to mix people up, thats what will reach people. I think you are going to have a difficult time finding someone who now or in the future says "I used to hate n*ggers but then I saw Ashley Barnes on his knee for two seconds and I now have a wife from Congo." Its just not how things work.

If your sports hero does it on his own as some kind of disobedient, anti-establishment thing like it was initially, then yes maybe a few could be affected. But when its some unwritten rule that everyone is pretty much required to do unless they want all the HWT:s of the world against them, it has little effect. It just becomes mundane and powerless.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Its not how it happens. The way to end or reduce racism is to educate people and to create opportunities for "different races" to meet eachother in real life. Forcefeeding it by some gesture made by a stranger playing football is not going to change anything. There is no racist out there who is going to watch people take the knee and think "hmm, maybe the races are equal after all". Getting a black co-worker or crush all these fancy all-white private schools to mix people up, thats what will reach people. I think you are going to have a difficult time finding someone who now or in the future says "I used to hate n*ggers but then I saw Ashley Barnes on his knee for two seconds and I now have a wife from Congo." Its just not how things work.

If your sports hero does it on his own as some kind of disobedient, anti-establishment thing like it was initially, then yes maybe a few could be affected. But when its some unwritten rule that everyone is pretty much required to do unless they want all the HWT:s of the world against them, it has little effect. It just becomes mundane and powerless.

I was being facetious <sigh>

Good luck with 'education' though.

And I have said repeatedly that if Zaha wants to stand he can stand. He won't have the HWT of this silo against him.

If the players want to vote to stop doing it that's their business.

In the meantime I don't think that sniping at it (whether by Zaha, Ferdinand, Das Reich or yourself) is helpful. Or campaigning for the players to stop doing it. Or indeed me speaking up for it, so I'll shut up for now (till next time).

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

If he thinks it is a good idea the whole of football unilaterally stop taking the knee just because QPR does a bit in the community then I think he is very certainly missing the point. Did he not come out with all this months ago?

Here's a thought: maybe not all black people are correct in what they say about dealing with racism all the time

Here's another thought: maybe the black guy who seems to have a view that differes from most other black guys (not including Zaha, of course) maybe the one that'st wrong. Just a thought

I’d certainly put someone who played through racism and seen the weak actions taken view above most.

It’s a currently a gesture with no real action to follow it up.

Apart from taking the knee and a few TV adverts what has actually been done to try and tackle the issue?

If you think taking the knee is still hitting home as a message, fair enough - but you seem to be suggesting to keep it just because it annoys some racists?

What would actually annoy racists is life time bans and jail time.

 

[Randy McNob]

Not sure if it's been mentioned already, just food for thought but James Maclean, Stoke player gets alot of criticism for not wearing the poppy. Surely he's doing exactly what people are saying on the taking the knee issue? He shouldn't be forced into it so why are the rules different ?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I’d certainly put someone who played through racism and seen the weak actions taken view above most.

It’s a currently a gesture with no real action to follow it up.

Apart from taking the knee and a few TV adverts what has actually been done to try and tackle the issue?

If you think taking the knee is still hitting home as a message, fair enough - but you seem to be suggesting to keep it just because it annoys some racists?

What would actually annoy racists is life time bans and jail time.

I agree with your last point but I disagree with everything else.

Bottom line, if players thought that taking the knee has run its course they would stop doing it.

(incidentally the racists will be wetting themselve seing antiracists arguing the toss about taking the knee).

 

[Weststander]

If he thinks it is a good idea the whole of football unilaterally stop taking the knee just because QPR does a bit in the community then I think he is very certainly missing the point. Did he not come out with all this months ago?

Here's a thought: maybe not all black people are correct in what they say about dealing with racism all the time

Here's another thought: maybe the black guy who seems to have a view that differes from most other black guys (not including Zaha, of course) maybe the one that'st wrong. Just a thought

Not just Zaha and Les, Carlton Cole has a point that plenty of black players are losing respect for TTK because nothing’s changed in that they’re still getting abused online.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/56140495

His suggestion is that it becomes a choice.

 

[The Clamp]

Why would anybody who is not directing affected by this give a fig?