[Football] 20 out of 20 managers fail to coach their strikers how to score

[vegster]

Of course it plays a part.
[MENTION=38333]Swansman[/MENTION] is calling out the narrative that our strikers' misses are entirely the fault of G-Pott. The 'Potterout' squad.

I actually don't mind potterouters as an entity. [MENTION=28481]neilbard[/MENTION] makes me laugh. He's made a decision and doesn't bother to justify it (much). We disagree. That's all.

What gets on my wick is the torturing of statistics to 'prove' that Potter is a tuppeny ha'penny wanker, and the relentless thread starting by some clowns calling for Potter to be sacked after every draw. I sense a little glee there. Nasty, in fact.

Harry, you have been around long enough to have seen the story of Potter's management tenure played out many times before.
Whenever a new manager comes in there is usually a huge uplift in confidence that the Good Times are just around the corner... If there were such things as " Approval Ratings" for managers I think it's fair to say they usually start at about 90% positive apart from a few naysayers who sit in the corner and say... " I don't rate him.. "... As time progresses the balance at first slowly shifts and our Hero accelerates down to zero and you end up in the full baying mob scenario.

These days it's worse because the game is analysed to a quite extraordinary level and much of the stats are available for a small fee. So, any Naysayer with a bit of time on his hands can quickly put together a case on whichever statistics fit their their agenda.

I quite like Potter but it's always been about results, we have been here before and we will be again, think Houghton, Hypia Hinshelwood. It always ends in tears, it's just the weapon used to despatch that changes.

 

[Wardy's twin]

I don't think its really about coaching technical skills you have to assume that they exist in a player, it's more about how you think under pressure - get your thinking straight so improving composure. Maybe they need to do a bit of meditation before the came to calm the nerves.

Calvert Lewis has become a better striker because he has the confidence of the people round him and that has improved his confidence.

 

[The Fits]

These days it's worse because the game is analysed to a quite extraordinary level and much of the stats are available for a small fee. So, any Naysayer with a bit of time on his hands can quickly put together a case on whichever statistics fit their their agenda.

Stats have ruined football!

 

[vegster]

I don't think its really about coaching technical skills you have to assume that they exist in a player, it's more about how you think under pressure - get your thinking straight so improving composure. Maybe they need to do a bit of meditation before the came to calm the nerves.

Calvert Lewis has become a better striker because he has the confidence of the people round him and that has improved his confidence.

I'm sure i remember a manager who was under pressure as his team had barely scored for weeks. Instead of the usual build up play he instigated training where it became " Shoot on Sight " sessions in order to get players confidence back up.... you do see teams play the ball from side to side across the oppositions penalty area looking for the perfect opportunity and then become reluctant to take a shot.

It really does not hurt to fizz one in from range, just get it on target and whoever is closest should steam in to the box in case it gets spilled and falls for another chance... It's a simple game really.

 

[MJsGhost]

I am not sure there is a happy middle ground here because what this boils down to is Potter in or out, fuelled by an argument by some outers that our lack of goals is entirely down to Potter (as mocked by the OP). My point is that people are agreeing with the OP then saying "but what about Calvert-Lewin? That proves a manager can transform a player into a striker, therefore PotterOUT!!!" (I may have finished that sentence a little more unequivocally than the post I am semi-quoting ).

There's always middle ground Harry (sometimes happy, sometimes not)...

Calvert-Lewin has said in interviews that under Ancelotti, he has been given specific pointers that have really improved him (IIRC it's taking chances first time rather than taking a touch), so I'd say that it's a pretty clear (and evidenced) example of where a manager/coach has made a difference. That hasn't happened in isolation of course, because Everton also bought a load of players to supply DCL with better chances...

But it can't always be something that can be coached out of them (or into them) - it depends on why the player isn't scoring, which could be a whole bunch of things.

Some of those could/should be influenced by the manager, but some of them are down to the individual. Some could even be attributed to (or exacerbated by) fans - lack of confidence / fear of failure can't exactly be helped when there's a baying mob on your back - whether it's in the stadium, or on social media.

For what it's worth, I think that ultimately it IS Potter's job to make our team more clinical, so he doesn't get a free pass, but that I recognise that eeeees complicated, it won't happen overnight and that sometimes it's a case of silk purse/sow's ear*.







*though I suspect Bielsa could whip up a silk purse, kimono AND a set of Barry White's bedsheets from a single sow's ear, just by looking at it

 

[Badger Boy]

How come Bielsa only taught Bamford how to score goals? On the training session when he made Bamford a goal scorer, did he tell Rodrigo "no I will only teach Bamford how to score a goal." And how come Steve Bruce only taught Callum Wilson to score goals, but not the other Newcastle strikers? If we ignore the whole logical fallacy where you reject my claim that its not 100% about coaching yet mention both that Wilson also scored previously but still mention Bruce as an example of me being wrong. Why wouldnt he teach Joelinton or Carroll how to score goals?

You're not wrong, you're just making a really strange point in a very strange and selective way. You know very well that not every club has a player who scores a dozen goals per season. Some have two, City and Liverpool will have potentially 3. As you stalk my posts, you know I'm not one of the people running around demanding a £30m striker as if that's the answer. It's not. My opinion is that our squad is good enough, your messiah is not. But our players really need to stop fluffing good chances.

 

[Justice]

Oh dear. And when were you married to tom hark then, or any of your super smart “Potter out” gang.

“These blokes both think Porter is gud manager. Lolz you are both gay”.

This is quite pathetic tbh. Are you 12 years old mentally?

Calm down Doris

 

[Swansman]

My opinion is that our squad is good enough, your messiah is not. But our players really need to stop fluffing good chances.

I know, and disagree.

Hypophetically speaking, if the players stopped fluffing good chances and the team ended up... 12th. Would that make the manager good enough for you? Or exactly what would be needed to turn you around? (pure curiosity as I have no ambition to try to convince you out of your beliefs; I much prefer you being in the #potterout camp).

 

[Badger Boy]

I know, and disagree.

Hypophetically speaking, if the players stopped fluffing good chances and the team ended up... 12th. Would that make the manager good enough for you? Or exactly what would be needed to turn you around? (pure curiosity as I have no ambition to try to convince you out of your beliefs; I much prefer you being in the #potterout camp).

Honestly, I'm not in the Out camp. I think we're very close to being a good team and 12th would be a clear improvement and it would be a clear reason to keep Potter and let him carry on evolving the squad as he wants to, in line with Ashworth and Bloom's vision/resources. The manager will live and die by the results, ultimately - we're not far off winning more games but we've been saying that for his 18 month reign and it hasn't happened yet. At what point does it become systemic? Personally, as an outsider looking in I can see it going both ways - we start getting better results and win the odd home game and it's all rosy and fine. But I can also see us continuing to win about 1 in 4/5 games, doing enough to stay up but cutting ties with Potter with all the niceties there were when Hughton left.

You are far more fanatical about Potter In than I am about Out, because I've not been voting Out in the polls. I don't blame him for the missed chances, the XG table speaks for itself (although I question its usefulness). I do blame him for not dropping Ryan sooner, you'll remember I've been advocating that for a while because you were passionately in opposition to that suggestion. Very fine margins determine seasons and careers, you might not have followed Brighton very long but you've clearly been in football for a long time so you'll no doubt know a lot of managers who didn't do a bad job as such, it just didn't work out for them at the club. Maybe that's what's happening with Potter, maybe not. We won't know until it's over.

 

[boik]

I know, and disagree.

Hypophetically speaking, if the players stopped fluffing good chances and the team ended up... 12th. Would that make the manager good enough for you? Or exactly what would be needed to turn you around? (pure curiosity as I have no ambition to try to convince you out of your beliefs; I much prefer you being in the #potterout camp).

As I pointed out an another thread. Players only needed to avoid fluffing 4 of all those chances and we'd be 12th and even the Potter Out gang would have been hailing him. It's fine margins.

What really gets me is the childish name calling of Potter by the noisy few. He seems like an honourable guy who would never resort to name-calling but has been called "cretin", "thicko" "dipstick" and many other things.

It would help me if you could see the ages of posters, because if they really are as young as they seem then I would cut them some slack.

 

[Swansman]

12:36

I would then fire Potter for failing to achieve the ambition of progressing the club forward despite the investment in the squad

14:11

Honestly, I'm not in the Out camp..

If you are the main character in some upcoming Stephen King novel where a man finds himself permanently trapped in a Boris Johnson press conference, blink two times and we'll try to get you out of there.

 

[Badger Boy]

12:36


14:11


If you are the main character in some upcoming Stephen King novel where a man finds himself permanently trapped in a Boris Johnson press conference, blink two times and we'll try to get you out of there.

You don't even try to understand the points I make. I'm not voting Out, I'm not saying Out. But if at the end of the season we haven't improved and have stayed up because other teams were worse then, like Hughton before him, I would fire Potter for failing to improve the club.

I think that's quite straight forward but if you don't want to understand nuance, that's up to you. Maybe it's been too long since people tried to understand the centre position. Rather than being dramatically and vocally in one hashtag camp or another, it is possible to understand the arguments for both in moderation. I'm not saying Out for now, I'm saying Out if at the end of the season we have not improved upon last season. If we have a strong run to finish the season again and sneak into 14th then there's no question - he stays and continues the job he's doing. If things haven't turned around then I'll more likely be moving to the Out camp. And I don't think I'd be alone in that.

 

[essbee1]

I agree with Swanboy.

Being a striker has always been seen (rightfully or wrongfully) a natural gift (right place, right time) and to try to train someone to do that would be almost
an insult to them. So, maybe manages need to sort it out.

 

[Frankworthington]

Calm down Doris

Prick

 

[Bombadier Botty]

But would anyone take a point against Spurs right now?

 

[deslynhamsmoustache1]

A little bit one sided there and slightly miss leading from the OP. take his example of Ferguson at utd with Diego Forlan not being able to hit the target. Quite simply he didn't have to worry how poor Diego's goal scoring was, why? because in the 2 years Forlan was missing every chance Ruud van Nistelrooy was banging them in. 2002 he got 25, 2003 he got 30 and in 2004 a certain Mr Wayne Rooney got 17. I haven't even looked up what Beckman, Scoles and Giggs etc contributed and I would imagine if you took those other players on Swansman's list they are in teams where it is really not comparable with our situation. i.e. too many games where nobody scores, let alone whishing one of the strikers to.

 

[Weststander]

I take your point, however, what about Calvert Lewin at Everton. Ha he suddenly just got better or is it because he has Duncan Ferguson helping him with his game.

Of course you can make strikers better at finishing. I agree its not down to the Manager to do this, but it is down to the Manager to find a way to do it.

If it was that easy, every EPL regular forward would get 20+ goals a season, every season.

In reality, the vast majority simply haven't got the unerring calmness of mind in the moment, confidence and technical ability of Kane and Mane. Instead fluffing their lines, over and over again, with the occasional goal.

The likes of Muzza and Ings are a rarity.

 

[Justice]

Prick

Says the knob hiding behind second accounts

 

[vagabond]

But would anyone take a point against Spurs right now?

I would. We deserved more at WHL.

But it would be nice to turn one of these endless draws into a win soon though. Connolly will be back so you never know...

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Not everyones. Just some.

Its just very silly that people despite following football for x number of years just fail to understand a very simple thing like there being a 100 different factors - coaching is just one - why a player score a lot or doesnt score a lot.

Yes. Potter is not the messiah and he is not a naughty boy either.
Pro and anti Potter camps have both got carried away. He is just the Head Coach and is doing a decent (but no better) job within the budget set by the club.