[Travel] FlyBe in trouble? (BBC report)

[Springal]

Taxes are already pretty high on premium class seats.

Airline pricing is bonkers. Look at these BA direct Heathrow -> San Francisco return flights I was looking at for the upcoming Feb half-term...

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A lot of that is not 'true' tax and simply lining the airlines pockets, unfortunately.

I just used some air miles to go to the US in Business class - and paid £650 in tax per person! A lot of this is 'fuel surcharge' and not a tax the government see anything of

 

[Bozza]

A lot of that is not 'true' tax and simply lining the airlines pockets, unfortunately.

I just used some air miles to go to the US in Business class - and paid £650 in tax per person! A lot of this is 'fuel surcharge' and not a tax the government see anything of

Most of it is "true tax" - I'd already drilled down - £168.47 of the adult taxes and charges is government/environmental, with just £90.00 being BA's own charges/fees.



I've become a Virgin miles hoarder because as much as I love PE and, particularly, Upper - I'm struggling to justify paying more in taxes/charges for my miles-only "free" flights than I'd pay if I just bought an economy cash ticket.

 

[Springal]

Most of it is "true tax" - I'd already drilled down - £168.47 of the adult taxes and charges is government/environmental, with just £90.00 being BA's own charges/fees.

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I've become a Virgin miles hoarder because as much as I love PE and, particularly, Upper - I'm struggling to justify paying more in taxes/charges for my miles-only "free" flights than I'd pay if I just bought an economy cash ticket.

I think it is Biz / Upper tickets that suffer much heavier 'taxation' by airlines

 

[nicko31]

Most of it is "true tax" - I'd already drilled down - £168.47 of the adult taxes and charges is government/environmental, with just £90.00 being BA's own charges/fees.

View attachment 119131

I've become a Virgin miles hoarder because as much as I love PE and, particularly, Upper - I'm struggling to justify paying more in taxes/charges for my miles-only "free" flights than I'd pay if I just bought an economy cash ticket.

Where's the tax on aviation fuel? The industry has had a free ride for decades and is still growing. Little surprise the government wants the figures excluded from emissions targets

I'd give everyone an annual allowance, if you exceed it you pay. Its business and frequent flyers that do the damage, not Mum Dad and the kids on their annual Tui trip to the Med...

 

[Springal]

I'd give everyone an annual allowance, if you exceed it you pay. Its business and frequent flyers that do the damage, not Mum Dad and the kids on their annual Tui trip to the Med...

Guess what - people need to do stuff. I have to travel to Edinburgh quite a lot - I can fly it in 3.5 hours from leaving my house to landing in Edinburgh, or get the train for over 7 hours and twice as expensive.

 

[beorhthelm]

Where's the tax on aviation fuel? The industry has had a free ride for decades and is still growing. Little surprise the government wants the figures excluded from emissions targets

I'd give everyone an annual allowance, if you exceed it you pay. Its business and frequent flyers that do the damage, not Mum Dad and the kids on their annual Tui trip to the Med...

nice to think of the holiday market, however 12% of flights are for business. an annual allowance would be a good idea, those not using flights could sell their allocation.

from an holistic point of view on emissions, fewer, business focused flights on mid-sized craft would be the best use of resources.

 

[worthingseagull123]

Well how else is she supposed to get to New York, swim?, flying across the pond really is the only practial option, and if she has the funds and wishes to travel First Class, that's up her to her.

FlyBe on the other hand operates mainly domestically, and l'm sure that in many instances there are alternative ways to travel, train etc.

She said a few years back that flying to Spain was as bad as stabbing someone in the street.

Then she books regular transatlantic flights.

As for the business class, just google it. Plenty of sources.

 

[Bozza]

Guess what - people need to do stuff. I have to travel to Edinburgh quite a lot - I can fly it in 3.5 hours from leaving my house to landing in Edinburgh, or get the train for over 7 hours and twice as expensive.

What I'm struggling slightly with the Flybe story is they seem to have a bit of a monopoly on many of their regional routes and given the chief alternative is time-consuming and expensive rail travel, I'm not sure why they're simply not charging more in order to ensure their financial security.

I appreciate that seems a somewhat simplistic thing to say, but the news yesterday was full of the stories of Flybe passengers crossing the country in a fraction of the time that they could otherwise do, often for less money.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

nice to think of the holiday market, however 12% of flights are for business. an annual allowance would be a good idea, those not using flights could sell their allocation.

from an holistic point of view on emissions, fewer, business focused flights on mid-sized craft would be the best use of resources.

I like the theory of an annual allowance to cover everything we do.

 

[nicko31]

She said a few years back that flying to Spain was as bad as stabbing someone in the street.

Then she books regular transatlantic flights.

As for the business class, just google it. Plenty of sources.

I smell a right wing blogger as the source of this.

So you've downgraded Caroline from First to Business, are we still talking New York or was it someplace else? How often is regular, every week, every month?

 

[nicko31]

What I'm struggling slightly with the Flybe story is they seem to have a bit of a monopoly on many of their regional routes and given the chief alternative is time-consuming and expensive rail travel, I'm not sure why they're simply not charging more in order to ensure their financial security.

I appreciate that seems a somewhat simplistic thing to say, but the news yesterday was full of the stories of Flybe passengers crossing the country in a fraction of the time that they could otherwise do, often for less money.

Does look like they've never really made any money, with these kind of figure all your need to surging costs on the back of a weak sterling as you're toast.

 

[clapham_gull]

She said a few years back that flying to Spain was as bad as stabbing someone in the street.

Then she books regular transatlantic flights.

As for the business class, just google it. Plenty of sources.

But she's not targeting individuals who fly "too much" , she's attacking the system that allows us too. No hypocrisy at all.

I go to a conference in Europe every year and get the train there. Wouldn't fly back if it wasn't such a hassle to get the train back.

That would be one flight ticked off.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

It's a very brave or very foolish person that would book a FlyBe flight right now. Do you feel lucky punk?

 

[CHAPPERS]

This story is a year old

https://www.ft.com/content/c24054d4-1c13-11e9-b126-46fc3ad87c65

Troubled UK regional airline Flybe was given an increase of £1m in public subsidies by ministers and local authority officials as it struggled to stay afloat because of poor results and large debts.

The government allowed the airline to switch a flight route from Gatwick airport to Heathrow, where it could offer more services by using its existing landing slots at London’s main international hub.

Both the Department for Transport and the airline said the decision was made to benefit passengers because the carrier could offer more frequent flights at a bigger airport with better long-haul connections.

The move, which was announced in November, led to a higher subsidy because of the increased flight frequency at a more expensive airport.

It also freed up valuable flight slots at Gatwick, which Flybe subsequently sold as part of its efforts to raise cash. The carrier no longer has any slots at Gatwick.

As well as the slots, it has also sold and leased back a hangar at its Exeter headquarters for £5m and released $5m secured against one of its aircraft.

The airline was sold to a consortium including Virgin Atlantic, which valued the company’s equity at £2.2m, in January. The consortium injected £10m as a bridge loan to help the company’s capital position.

However, the sale has upset at least one large shareholder.

Hosking Partners, which owns 19 per cent of Flybe, has sent a letter to the board threatening a legal challenge, saying the sale undervalued the company. The letter was first reported by Sky News.

Flybe said it had been “faced with a very tough decision based on Flybe’s current difficult liquidity position and the expectation that this pressure will continue . . . Flybe will be responding directly to letters received from shareholders.”

Flybe had operated three daily services from Newquay in Cornwall to Gatwick, south of London, from October 2014 under what is called a public service obligation, which supports uncommercial air routes with state subsidies.

The contract is with Cornwall council but the Department for Transport has to sign off on the agreement and the subsidy level.

In October, the government and Cornwall council announced that Flybe would continue the Newquay to Gatwick route for another four years, with a maximum £2.4m subsidy split equally between government and council.

But less than two months later in November, transport secretary Chris Grayling said the route would run from Newquay to Heathrow four times daily from April 2019 instead, with Flybe receiving up to £3.4m in subsidy, an increase of £960,000.

Flybe had put in two bids for the route — one for Newquay to Gatwick only and for Newquay to Gatwick, which could become Newquay to Heathrow if Flybe could repurpose its slots at the latter.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

What I'm struggling slightly with the Flybe story is they seem to have a bit of a monopoly on many of their regional routes and given the chief alternative is time-consuming and expensive rail travel, I'm not sure why they're simply not charging more in order to ensure their financial security.

I appreciate that seems a somewhat simplistic thing to say, but the news yesterday was full of the stories of Flybe passengers crossing the country in a fraction of the time that they could otherwise do, often for less money.

I am absolutely in the same place as you on this. Why don't they charge more? I live in Cornwall and I just looked and you can fly Newquay to Heathrow at the end of the month for £80 return. Same trip on the train is £158 return.

Surely the plane should be more. That's just ridiculous!

 

[Brovion]

I like the theory of an annual allowance to cover everything we do.

I've often thought that perhaps we could have a system of individual carbon credits. Every year on the 1st of Jan every adult gets say 100,000 credits. Every time* you buy something not only do you pay the financial price, you have to pay its carbon price as well with your Credits. There would be a Carbon Exchange (like the ticket exchange). If you don't think you'll use up all your credits (because you're struggling on benefits in a one-bed flat) you can put the surplus on the Exchange. If you're a frequent long-haul flyer who also centrally-heats a big house and drives a thirsty car you'll probably run out by May, so you can buy the extra Credits you need via the Exchange. Has the added benefit of re-distributing wealth straight from rich to poor without the cost friction drag of going via the government.

*There might have to be a certain cut-off. We could start with flights and fuel and work from there.


Probably been thought of (and dismissed) before, but I still like the concept.

 

[beorhthelm]

I've often thought that perhaps we could have a system of individual carbon credits. Every year on the 1st of Jan every adult gets say 100,000 credits. Every time* you buy something not only do you pay the financial price, you have to pay its carbon price as well with your Credits. There would be a Carbon Exchange (like the ticket exchange). If you don't think you'll use up all your credits (because you're struggling on benefits in a one-bed flat) you can put the surplus on the Exchange. If you're a frequent long-haul flyer who also centrally-heats a big house and drives a thirsty car you'll probably run out by May, so you can buy the extra Credits you need via the Exchange. Has the added benefit of re-distributing wealth straight from rich to poor without the cost friction drag of going via the government.

*There might have to be a certain cut-off. We could start with flights and fuel and work from there.


Probably been thought of (and dismissed) before, but I still like the concept.

the concept is already in place with carbon credits for business. just needs to be framed to individuals, where real consumption occurs.

 

[Cowfold Seagull]

I am absolutely in the same place as you on this. Why don't they charge more? I live in Cornwall and I just looked and you can fly Newquay to Heathrow at the end of the month for £80 return. Same trip on the train is £158 return.

Surely the plane should be more. That's just ridiculous!

The great majority of FlyBe's passengers do pay a lot more! They are essentially an airline that appeals to business travellers, who need the flexibility to be able to change their flight or to cancel the trip at the last minute, which of course costs a great deal more than a cheaper one, (such as that £80 deal from Newquay to LHR that you mention), where once the flight is booked & paid for, the flights generally can't be changed and there is little chance of a refund.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

It will be interesting to see which way this one goes. I guess it boils down to the Tory instinctive policy of letting failing firms go to the wall v. the Tory rhetoric of being a 'one nation' outfit looking after the interests of all parts of the country.

One thing that won't be baked into the decsion is the green argument.

 

[CHAPPERS]

Out of interest, who are all these people flying from Newquay to Heathrow all the time?