[Politics] Brexit

[Blue Valkyrie]

If the Labour party really wanted to make mischief, it could take the accidental amendment of May's deal as a genuine position and put it back to the House. The Tories would then be skewered, nearly all of them voted for that exact deal just a few months previously, how could they reject it? It wouldn't pass as the Tory front bench, ERG, the LDs and SNP (and some Labour) would vote against it but it would be a very uncomfortable couple of hours for the Conservatives.

I'd love the May's Deal++ agreement to pass.

It only includes a Custom's Union until the next election, so there would be big arguing then, but at least progress on the main issue would be made.

 

[pb21]

If the Labour party really wanted to make mischief, it could take the accidental amendment of May's deal as a genuine position and put it back to the House. The Tories would then be skewered, nearly all of them voted for that exact deal just a few months previously, how could they reject it? It wouldn't pass as the Tory front bench, ERG, the LDs and SNP (and some Labour) would vote against it but it would be a very uncomfortable couple of hours for the Conservatives.

Can you imagine the scenes?

Also isn't this May's deal after the talks with Labour? If so that would skewer the Tories even more.

Do they whip MPs to vote against it (as presumably they would) and expel the likes of May etc., who would presumably vote for it, from the party, or would they whip for it and expel the likes Mogg/Redwood who would vote against it?!

Not only would this get the issue of how we leave the EU settled it would seriously split the Tory party in two, even more than now.

 

[Dick Swiveller]

This is my main concern - the next GE will effectively be a second Brexit referendum, rather than a GE to discuss all the other issues in the country that should also be included: health, education, defence et al. I know these things are deeply intertwined with Brexit, but I fear these things will be overlooked and it'll just be parties campaigning on a Leave or Remain ticket and the other issues will be mere footnotes.

And the one thing that is guaranteed is that no one party will get more than 50% of the vote. So the same interpretations will be made by the same people based on their wish and therefore skewed version of what people voted for.

FWIW, I think the only way to ever know for sure and to shut people up (*) for good is a definitively worded second referendum. Question 1 - Do you want to leave the EU. Question 2. If we do leave the EU - do you want the WA or No Deal. Whether you want to leave or not, it is hard to argue that it wouldn't decide the issue once and for all. But as very few leavers would agree it was a good idea and even less MPs, I guess it is irrelevant.

(*) Yes I know it wouldn't shut people up for good. But would be a snapshot of the will of the people. A second vote to leave might shut remainers up. A reversal would never shut the leavers up.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Can you imagine the scenes?

Also isn't this May's deal after the talks with Labour? If so that would skewer the Tories even more.

Do they whip MPs to vote against it (as presumably they would) and expel the likes of May etc., who would presumably vote for it, from the party, or would they whip for it and expel the likes Mogg/Redwood who would vote against it?!

Not only would this get the issue of how we leave the EU settled it would seriously split the Tory party in two, even more than now.

Yes, it's May's deal + the extras agreed with Labour. May's resignation killed it.

 

[pb21]

Yes, it's May's deal + the extras agreed with Labour. May's resignation killed it.

This should have real chance of passing then, the closest to a cross party deal we will likely get.

 

[dingodan]

Well the choice is yours

Take democracy away from MPs and give it back to the people

or

Don't do anything, just moan about it and stop voting

"Take democracy away from MPs and give it back to the people"

Shows the problem doesn't it.

It's not meant to be us vs them, and while it is, they will always win. They gave us the decision, then they took it back.

I won't moan, but I won't vote either.

"The table is tilted folks, the game is rigged." - George Carlin.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Full gammon meltdown on twitter #DemocracyisDEAD is worth a look

 

[dingodan]

How can you say that? Parliament has voted on one withdrawal agreement, just one (three times!), it hasn't been presented with other options to vote on so you have no idea whether other ones would have passed.

It hasn't voted on a trading deal yet, as none has been discussed

Maybe you can't see through all this BS, but I can.

Parliament will never allow us to actually leave the EU. They don't want us to leave, and they will always have the final say.

 

[Simster]

I don't think I've posted on this thread yet. I've been scared of the inevitable bitching that will ensue. Declaring my own hand, I voted to remain. For what it's worth, I think Parliament will rue the day it rejected May's deal, as we would have been out by now and moving onto the next phase of negotiations. I would have been happy enough to accept that at the time as the logical outcome of the referendum result. Hell, if it was offered again today, I would say "go for it".

So we now seem to be collectively paralysed. I'm not a fan of the option of another general election, as it takes the defining issue of the day and bundles it up with everything else. This skews the outcome and means that nobody can legitimately claim they have a mandate on any issues pertaining to Brexit.

Given the paralysis, I would suggest putting it back to the people for a final say. Parliament has tried and failed to determine what was meant by the first poll so a second would provide clarity. I expect at this stage that Parliament probably would sign off on the outcome of a second vote simply in order to be able to move on.

I would advocate for a two phase vote. The first would have the three options of remain, leave without a deal and leave with the deal offered to May. The second phase, possibly two weeks to a month later, would take the top two options from the first for a run off. This would prevent the leave option being split and defeated in a single vote. It would also offer leave voters two bites at the cherry, which certainly seems fair given they were the victors in the 2016 vote.

But what do I know anyway? I'm just some git trying to get on with putting food on the table and getting a daughter through university.

This is actually one of the best posts on the thread, in my opinion.

I don't actually agree with it though - I still think we'd be best served negotiating a cross-party deal that keeps us wedded to the EU to a degree out of necessity. The GFA absolutely has to be top priority, with people's livelihoods a close second. We are going to hell in a handcart if that popularist fücking lying twuntish fat chancer Boris Johnson wins an outright majority. In fact it would make me ashamed to be British.

 

[Simster]

Maybe you can't see through all this BS, but I can.

Parliament will never allow us to actually leave the EU. They don't want us to leave, and they will always have the final say.

Not only are you wrong, but you're getting boring now. We get it. You think parliamentary democracy is pointless. YAWN.

 

[Withdean11]

FWIW, I think the only way to ever know for sure and to shut people up (*) for good is a definitively worded second referendum. Question 1 - Do you want to leave the EU. Question 2. If we do leave the EU - do you want the WA or No Deal. Whether you want to leave or not, it is hard to argue that it wouldn't decide the issue once and for all. But as very few leavers would agree it was a good idea and even less MPs, I guess it is irrelevant.

Question 1 has already been done. I'm all for a referendum on Question 2, but, if No Deal wins do you really think Parliament and the hardcore remoaners would accept it?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

They are all a bunch of liars
Dingodan is correct, it's pretty much over in my book.

How stupid of me to think our politicians would listen to the views of people.

As I have said, I’m ab so lute ly loving this taking back control, got our country back malarkey.

Can I give you a cuddle?

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Luciana Berger is joining the Liberal Democrats

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

That's like saying 100% of voters who live on islands within the UK, inhabited by one person only, voted to leave - its meaningless. The referendum was stay v leave over the whole country, constituencies were irrelevant.

FFS believe it or not MP's have constituencies
regards
DX

 

[dingodan]

Not only are you wrong, but you're getting boring now. We get it. You think parliamentary democracy is pointless. YAWN.

No, I thought Parliamentary democracy, where parliamentarians attended parliament to fulfil their promises to represent the views of the people, was what we had.

I was wrong.

A ruling class masquerading as a Parliamentary democracy is what we have, and that is pointless.

Believing that the people of this country have a say in their own destiny was nieve and foolish of me, and if you still believe that, in the face of everything we have seen, then you are just as nieve and foolish as I was. Or maybe you don't care, because you are getting your own way. On this. For now. The time will come when you too will expressely declare your instruction to your representitives.

Only to find, as we have, that they have no intention of representing you at all.

 

[Ernest]

Luciana Berger is joining the Liberal Democrats

Without asking her constituents who voted for a Labour MP

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

As I have said, I’m ab so lute ly loving this taking back control, got our country back malarkey.

Can I give you a cuddle?

Who says we're not ??
Regards
DF

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Without asking her constituents who voted for a Labour MP

I'll agree with you on this one another stain on Democracy ,do they honestly believe people will accept these actions
Regards
DJ

 

[Triggaaar]

Does anyone remember 'The Northern Ireland Problem' being raised during the Referendum campaign?

It wouldn't have been a problem if we'd gone for a soft Brexit, which was the only realistic option, but I don't recall a big deal being made of how we couldn't have a hard Brexit. Surely Ireland and Northern Ireland knew about it?

 

[ManOfSussex]

Without asking her constituents who voted for a Labour MP

Plus the Lib Dems already have a candidate selected for Liverpool Wavertree at the next election, though with a 80% Labour vote share I doubt she'll be standing there again.