[Politics] Brexit

[peterward]

I like how you picked the one poll out of the data that supports your view and then neglect to mention the others. Let's have a look at the other questions in the survey.....

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.n...swcig8s0/Internal_190401_BrexitTrackers_w.pdf

Interesting how many of the other questions in that survey shows that people are very unhappy with the way things are going. Yet you chose not to link to those other questions for some reason.

Could you be any more transparent?

What you have linked is not the source I went from, where is the info graphic I posted? The FACT is we are due to leave on WTO on April 12th, that is the default legal position and as MPs voted last night to block that , the info graphic clearly showed in context, that decision was not current pollings most popular.

I never mentioned people's votes or any other wish lists Vs WTO, you just did...... maybe I wasn't explicit enough, but my comment about MPs blocking our leaving on April 12 on WTO, was directly related to last night cooper/letwin bill? And youguv polling states that WTO is more preferable with or without extension, or remain, contrary to cooper/letwin (not 100 other questions)

 

[Mental Lental]

Also - look at the demographics from that YouGov survey....



The glaringly obvious one being the age demographic.

 

[Mental Lental]

What you have linked is not the source I went from, where is the info graphic I posted?

Your info graphic, if you look at the raw data (this means numbers not pretty bar charts, difficult I know) was taken from the survey that I linked to. Which you obviously didn't read properly. This, combined with your view that No Deal is a good outcome for The UK, has pegged you as being too thick to bother engaging in conversation with.

And you know what that means.........



Know the company that you are now keeping.

 

[peterward]

This is entry level stuff. It doesn’t matter what you wanted from Brexit or what you thought you were voting for. You voted to Leave. Nothing else. The vote gave you no other options or promises. Nobody who voted leave could have possibly known what they were actually voting for. That’s a fact.

I’m not sure why you’re showing me graphs. That’s all retrospective information and meant nothing at the vote.

Here we go.... Those who voted leave didn't know what they were voting for? It's so condescending.

If you followed all the political debate at the time, the government and senior Labour figures pre vote said if we vote to leave that we would leave the EU, the customs union, the single market. That the referendum was either once in a lifetime of once in a generation etc. The Ballot paper conferred that with do you wish to "leave the European Union"
Then parliament voted to trigger article 50 of the Lisbon treaty, an EU treaty law, that clearly shows the process of leaving EU, is a 2 year window ending with full leaving of all EU institutions and the EU political union. And that is it, the rest is added later, That was the facts of process known before the vote....... after the vote parliament overwhelmingly voted to trigger that process by triggering article 50.

Of course leaving for some was about singular issues like immigration etc, but it's simplistic in the extreme to suggest that all leave voters voted on a simplistic notion or single issue. I wouldn't suggest remainers are I'll informed or don't know what the vote on, they simply have fundamental difference of opinion of long term outlook for the UK.
fwiw leaving on most favourable terms is of course most preferable, but "a deal" is not part of that legal article 50 process. The process was clear as were political declarations from both major parties prior to the referendum. Could anyone of predicted where we are now? No, but that's hugely in part by an incompetent PM and remain MPs trying to circumvent leaving by any means.

 

[peterward]

Your info graphic, if you look at the raw data (this means numbers not pretty bar charts, difficult I know) was taken from the survey that I linked to. Which you obviously didn't read properly. This, combined with your view that No Deal is a good outcome for The UK, has pegged you as being too thick to bother engaging in conversation with.

And you know what that means.........

View attachment 107110

Know the company that you are now keeping.

Not capable of debate, reduced to slurs and blocking? Work away in your narrow echo chamber of opinion!

I never dismissed your youguv poll, but my info graphic was based entirely on cooper/letwin bill and April 12. You tried to create a fake argument with your wider polling data, on points or insinuations I never made as if I had. If you have a point to make it, by all means........but don't try and put words or assumptions in others mouths that they didn't make. You're arguing with yourself.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

So easy to say, yet very hard to show how.

And yet to be in any way convincingly demonstrated by anyone, yet alone Leaver folk on this thread. At best at huge leap into the dark. At worst, a huge leap over a cliff...………………

A few things to consider:


1. We'll lose trade with our biggest market (most business would stop at this point)

2. The world is not currently a good place to be seeking new deals (Trump)

3. We'll look desperate and might be a soft touch

4. We'll come out of the Brexit process with a flawed reputation (the brand will not be enhanced)

5. The set-up costs for new deals will be significant and prolonged

6. The opportunity cost is will be that we'd be excluded from any future deals that the EU reach with (other) 3rd parties

7. Although we can't yet be realistically expected to have any new deals set-up (as we've not yet left), the signs are not very encouraging hitherto

8. No other country has ever tried anything on this scale

9. The process might well be beset by domestic instabilities (we've proved world-class at this!)

10. I'm not sure that we as country could currently organise a piss-up in a brewery

 

[WATFORD zero]

Here we go.... Those who voted leave didn't know what they were voting for? It's so condescending.

If you followed all the political debate at the time, the government and senior Labour figures pre vote said if we vote to leave that we would leave the EU, the customs union, the single market. That the referendum was either once in a lifetime of once in a generation etc. The Ballot paper conferred that with do you wish to "leave the European Union"
Then parliament voted to trigger article 50 of the Lisbon treaty, an EU treaty law, that clearly shows the process of leaving EU, is a 2 year window ending with full leaving of all EU institutions and the EU political union. And that is it, the rest is added later, That was the facts of process known before the vote....... after the vote parliament overwhelmingly voted to trigger that process by triggering article 50.

Of course leaving for some was about singular issues like immigration etc, but it's simplistic in the extreme to suggest that all leave voters voted on a simplistic notion or single issue. I wouldn't suggest remainers are I'll informed or don't know what the vote on, they simply have fundamental difference of opinion of long term outlook for the UK.
fwiw leaving on most favourable terms is of course most preferable, but "a deal" is not part of that legal article 50 process. The process was clear as were political declarations from both major parties prior to the referendum. Could anyone of predicted where we are now? No, but that's hugely in part by an incompetent PM and remain MPs trying to circumvent leaving by any means.

Well it appears someone did, who could have guessed

2017

I really can't see anything beyond the three options

1/ Soft Brexit with No borders and regulatory alignment

2/ No agreement and WTO

3/ Withdraw article 50

Shirley, any negotiation now will only be minor fine-tuning on one of the above

2017

That would be the exact same section that TM tried earlier in the week and was immediately kicked into touch by the DUP then.

There were only ever three options

1/ Hard Border between NI and Ireland
2/ Hard Border between NI and rest of Britain and NI operates under EU rules.
3/ No Hard Border and GB operates under EU rules.

Whatever other waffle is wrapped around it those are the options and we've gone for 3. It's really not that complicated.

It's not about abandoning Brexit, It's about implementing it

Almost a year ago

It really is all over isn't it.

Firstly, the fantasists. It has finally dawned, even on [MENTION=14132]Two Professors[/MENTION], [MENTION=5101]BigGully[/MENTION], [MENTION=21401]pastafarian[/MENTION] and [MENTION=11191]Pretty pink fairy[/MENTION], that Theresa May failing to negotiate a deal doesn't equal their 'No deal'. Even their massive joint intellect has realised that 9 months is insufficient time to put in place borders, customs points and systems to manage the WTO rules and tariffs and that any failure to get a deal will actually mean further EU extensions on steadily worsening terms. Tick Tock Indeed.

Then we get to the 'Just get on with it' brigade. The Government can't even put together a white paper on Trade and Borders to start negotiations with the EU. Ask [MENTION=599]beorhthelm[/MENTION], [MENTION=578]portslade seagull[/MENTION] and [MENTION=12935]GT49er[/MENTION] what they think Theresa May should do differently or what they believe should be done on the border issue and the trade deal and they can't give a coherent solution. So what we are going to 'Get on with', nobody knows, least of all, them.

Lastly, we get to the people who seem to have a grasp of the implications of Brexit, [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] and [MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] (Sorry gentleman, the very definition of damning with faint praise). Even they are reduced to avoiding the main issue with forays of whataboutism where they win the occasional argument.

Two years on from the vote, 9 months from us 'leaving' the EU what have we got ? Two possibilities

1/ Softest of soft Brexits, still in a customs union, freedom of movement, significant contributions, no influence whatsoever.

2/ Continued fudging/Further extensions of membership until another vote (GE or referendum).

But this is what we voted for, and this is the reality of where this total clusterf*** has got us,

But who could have seen this coming

It appears that any idiot, who had given it a little thought could have seen this coming

 

[peterward]

Well it appears someone did, who could have guessed

2017



2017



Almost a year ago



It appears that any idiot, who had given it a little thought could have seen this coming

You're not wrong! I had meant prior to referendum, who could see...... The 2017 GE and 3/4 remainer parliament, put paid to the brexit many, I guess, thought then, would happen.

No problems at all with your strong opposing opinions Watford zero, individual Perception is everything!

 

[cheshunt seagull]

Well it appears someone did, who could have guessed

2017



2017



Almost a year ago



It appears that any idiot, who had given it a little thought could have seen this coming

For over 2 years there have only been the 3 basic options you have listed all of which will leave some people dissatisfied. The government and opposition should have been honest to people about the real choices and their unwillingness to do this for their own political reasons is why we have reached this pitiful stage.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You're not wrong! I had meant prior to referendum, who could see...... The 2017 GE and 3/4 remainer parliament, put paid to the brexit many, I guess, thought then, would happen.

No problems at all with your strong opposing opinions Watford zero, individual Perception is everything!

You call it a Remainer Parliament but it's the DUP & ERG who are voting against May's deal because it isn't hard enough.

 

[peterward]

You call it a Remainer Parliament but it's the DUP & ERG who are voting against May's deal because it isn't hard enough.

Hard and soft are constructs of the media! They would argue that it's either leaving fully... brexit, or not leaving fully... brexit in name only. The DUP whilst brexit supporters are more concerned about the backstop causing regulatory disalignment with rest of UK. May's deal is crap as is she as a PM, that's why the voted it down !
I'm a moderate not ERG'esque , I would love clean brexit and thought I voted for that, but still I would accept CU with all its hindrances to get out of the EU political union which is the number 1 imperative.

 

[WATFORD zero]

For over 2 years there have only been the 3 basic options you have listed all of which will leave some people dissatisfied. The government and opposition should have been honest to people about the real choices and their unwillingness to do this for their own political reasons is why we have reached this pitiful stage.

You're right in that this situation hasn't changed at all. (I would have said from the day after the referendum).

The Ireland/NI issue has always been there and will not go away, even if we rename it 'the backstop' and kick the can another two years down the road, it won't go away.

'No Deal' was never a starter and both the EU and UK Government have known it since day 1, hence no preparation for it at all. (Save for a few published papers, the 80 lorries and a dustcart down the M20 and the two days of dredging a disused port ).

So we have the choice of an extremely soft brexit or another vote (GE or referendum). GE makes no difference whatsoever.

So what's it to be - Soft Brexit or 2nd referendum (or possibly both).

And this is where I disagree with the previous poster. I've always believed (and may have said once or twice) that it wasn't ever a 'negotiation' but a simple narrative to get us to this point. It made no difference whatsoever who was in Cabinet, Government or Parliament.

What have we actually 'negotiated'

 

[The Clamp]

Here we go.... Those who voted leave didn't know what they were voting for? It's so condescending.

If you followed all the political debate at the time, the government and senior Labour figures pre vote said if we vote to leave that we would leave the EU, the customs union, the single market. That the referendum was either once in a lifetime of once in a generation etc. The Ballot paper conferred that with do you wish to "leave the European Union"
Then parliament voted to trigger article 50 of the Lisbon treaty, an EU treaty law, that clearly shows the process of leaving EU, is a 2 year window ending with full leaving of all EU institutions and the EU political union. And that is it, the rest is added later, That was the facts of process known before the vote....... after the vote parliament overwhelmingly voted to trigger that process by triggering article 50.

Of course leaving for some was about singular issues like immigration etc, but it's simplistic in the extreme to suggest that all leave voters voted on a simplistic notion or single issue. I wouldn't suggest remainers are I'll informed or don't know what the vote on, they simply have fundamental difference of opinion of long term outlook for the UK.
fwiw leaving on most favourable terms is of course most preferable, but "a deal" is not part of that legal article 50 process. The process was clear as were political declarations from both major parties prior to the referendum. Could anyone of predicted where we are now? No, but that's hugely in part by an incompetent PM and remain MPs trying to circumvent leaving by any means.

You couldn’t have possibly known what you were voting for. You likely did your research and knew what you wanted to happen. But you couldn’t have known what would happen. No amount of waffle will change that fact.

 

[Stat Brother]

Here we go.... Those who voted leave didn't know what they were voting for? It's so condescending.

If you followed all the political debate at the time, the government and senior Labour figures pre vote said if we vote to leave that we would leave the EU, the customs union, the single market. That the referendum was either once in a lifetime of once in a generation etc. The Ballot paper conferred that with do you wish to "leave the European Union"
Then parliament voted to trigger article 50 of the Lisbon treaty, an EU treaty law, that clearly shows the process of leaving EU, is a 2 year window ending with full leaving of all EU institutions and the EU political union. And that is it, the rest is added later, That was the facts of process known before the vote....... after the vote parliament overwhelmingly voted to trigger that process by triggering article 50.

Of course leaving for some was about singular issues like immigration etc, but it's simplistic in the extreme to suggest that all leave voters voted on a simplistic notion or single issue. I wouldn't suggest remainers are I'll informed or don't know what the vote on, they simply have fundamental difference of opinion of long term outlook for the UK.
fwiw leaving on most favourable terms is of course most preferable, but "a deal" is not part of that legal article 50 process. The process was clear as were political declarations from both major parties prior to the referendum. Could anyone of predicted where we are now? No, but that's hugely in part by an incompetent PM and remain MPs trying to circumvent leaving by any means.

Hmmmm, I just can't agree with either point.

The Leave Campaign solely targeted simplistic single issue soundbites.

The racists were handed a cure all for immigration. (Please don't make me search Farage and the billboards)
The Monarchists were to be given their sovereign identity back (not that it was ever taken from them)
The Soppy Bollox were told the NHS was in decline and £350m a week would save it.
The Working Classes were given all of the above and a brilliant future making cars.


For me personally I didn't know what I was voting for to stay, I personally just didn't like the Leave rhetoric.

As a result had we voted to Remain I probably still wouldn't have known what I voted for.
But crucially had I known then what I now know about the EU I would have voted, campaigned, screamed from the rooftops that we MUST STAY in the EU.

If in an unlikely second referendum people still voted to leave it would underline the fact what an appalling idea referendums were in the first place.

 

[Gazwag]

Hmmmm, I just can't agree with either point.

The Leave Campaign solely targeted simplistic single issue soundbites.

The racists were handed a cure all for immigration. (Please don't make me search Farage and the billboards)
The Monarchists were to be given their sovereign identity back (not that it was ever taken from them)
The Soppy Bollox were told the NHS was in decline and £350m a week would save it.
The Working Classes were given all of the above and a brilliant future making cars.


For me personally I didn't know what I was voting for to stay, I personally just didn't like the Leave rhetoric.

As a result had we voted to Remain I probably still wouldn't have known what I voted for.
But crucially had I known then what I now know about the EU I would have voted, campaigned, screamed from the rooftops that we MUST STAY in the EU.

If in an unlikely second referendum people still voted to leave it would underline the fact what an appalling idea referendums were in the first place.

In a nutshell - they should never have given such a important decision to the general public as very few really knew what they were voting for, on both sides, I totally agree

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

The ballot paper was explicit: do you want "to leave the European Union" how could anyone interpret that as half in half out? It's clear.

No different from saying "I want a divorce" and then someone tell you later, just because you asked for a divorce, you didn't actually ask to leave the house or not have sex again..... kinda obvious?

Leaving the EU means we no longer are a member. A useful indicator is whether or not we have MEPs in the European Parliament or not.

That is the test.

It is that black and white.

It is that binary.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Would you Adam and Eve it! Project Fear was right all along.


Economy grinds to a halt as businesses freeze spending on Brexit chaos

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...halt-businesses-freeze-spending-brexit-chaos/

Project *Head In The Sand Denial* will no doubt dispute this.

 

[peterward]

Hmmmm, I just can't agree with either point.

The Leave Campaign solely targeted simplistic single issue soundbites.

The racists were handed a cure all for immigration. (Please don't make me search Farage and the billboards)
The Monarchists were to be given their sovereign identity back (not that it was ever taken from them)
The Soppy Bollox were told the NHS was in decline and £350m a week would save it.
The Working Classes were given all of the above and a brilliant future making cars.


For me personally I didn't know what I was voting for to stay, I personally just didn't like the Leave rhetoric.

As a result had we voted to Remain I probably still wouldn't have known what I voted for.
But crucially had I known then what I now know about the EU I would have voted, campaigned, screamed from the rooftops that we MUST STAY in the EU.

If in an unlikely second referendum people still voted to leave it would underline the fact what an appalling idea referendums were in the first place.

I respect you're honesty, and I'd agree the vote leave campaign was based on populist slogans and remain on trying to scare everyone to stay with false predictions.

If you would campaign to stay, that's your right.... But the biggest reason I want to leave is the direction of travel of the EU and the treaties we are bound by. Their is so much that is of benefit in being a member, if things were stay as today, I wouldnt mind staying, but they wont.... The sovereignty issue is nearly always branded as rule Britannia, union jack nationalists/monarchists you rightly highlight. But the opposite is true for me personally. It has nothing to do with British symbolism. It is a fallacy to believe the EU or the status quo will remain as we are today, we voted for a common market and we end up with almost political union, we remain and will end up in a USE some day.

For all those who argue that leaving is an uncertain future, so is remaining. Because remaining will not just keep the status quo, the EU cannot function needing 27 or 28 unanimous votes on major issues, and it has no intention to if you read the Lisbon treaty. The EUs mantra of ever closer union means year or year bit by bit sovereignty is transferred from national executives to Brussels and the end objective is nothing short of a United States of Europe. That's not scaremongering, that's fact.
If we remain we board a train whose final destination is that end. What's the problem with that? None for many. I cannot personally stand that the EU is undemocratic and many of the political appointees who set laws that govern us, have actually been kicked out at the Ballot box by their national electorate. Our first past the post is flawed, I personally would hate a Corbyn government, but there is democratic accountability if thats the vote in our democratic system.

All countries joining EU have to join the euro, it is Gordon Browns legacy he stopped Blair from taking us in previously. But that won't and cannot last, it's a treaty obligation that all countries will have to adopt the euro and it will become necessary for the full political union.
Again it has nothing to do with pound Vs euro or what piece of paper is in your wallet. It means we lose control of our finances from the bank of England to the ECB who set Europe wide interest rates. After the 2007/08 crash our economy was one of the worst positioned and yet our ability to cut interest rates and allow quantative easing dug us out of the hole much better and quicker than any eurozone country. Once we have the euro, that is gone and we have no control or nimbleness to adapt to UK inflation or economic crises. Like handing control of your bank account to someone else. People that talk of the dangers of no deal rarely if ever mention the bigger danger of losing control of fiscal policy, which will come down the line unless we leave or the EU implodes.

 

[Stat Brother]

I respect you're honesty, and I'd agree the vote leave campaign was based on populist slogans and remain on trying to scare everyone to stay with false predictions.

If you would campaign to stay, that's your right.... But the biggest reason I want to leave is the direction of travel of the EU and the treaties we are bound by. Their is so much that is of benefit in being a member, and the sovereignty issue is nearly always branded as rule Britannia, union jack nationalists/monarchists you rightly highlight. But the opposite is true for me personally. It has nothing to do with British symbolism. It is a fallacy to believe the EU or the status quo will remain as we are today, we voted for a common market and we end up with almost political union, we remain and will end up in a USE some day.

For all those who argue that leaving is an uncertain future, so is remaining. Because remaining will not just keep the status quo, the EU cannot function needing 27 or 28 unanimous votes on major issues, and it has no intention to if you read the Lisbon treaty. The EUs mantra of ever closer union means year or year bit by bit sovereignty is transferred from national executives to Brussels and the end objective is nothing short of a United States of Europe. That's not scaremongering, that's fact.
If we remain we board a train whose final destination is that end. What's the problem with that? None for many. I cannot personally stand that the EU is undemocratic and many of the political appointees who set laws that govern us, have actually been kicked out at the Ballot box by their national electorate. Our first past the post is flawed, I personally would hate a Corbyn government, but there is democratic accountability if thats the vote in our democratic system.

All countries joining EU have to join the euro, it is Gordon Browns legacy he stopped Blair from taking us in previously. But that won't and cannot last, it's a treaty obligation that all countries will have to adopt the euro and it will become necessary for the full political union.
Again it has nothing to do with pound Vs euro or what piece of paper is in your wallet. It means we lose control of our finances from the bank of England to the ECB who set Europe wide interest rates. After the 2007/08 crash our economy was one of the worst positioned and yet our ability to cut interest rates and allow quantative easing dug us out of the hole much better and quicker than any eurozone country. Once we have the euro, that is gone and we have no control or nimbleness to adapt to UK inflation or economic crises. Like handing control of your bank account to someone else. People that talk of the dangers of no deal rarely if ever mention the bigger danger of losing control of fiscal policy, which will come down the line unless we leave or the EU implodes.

So whilst in the EU you believe the UK was able to get it's economy into better shape when the world's financial greed finally caught up with itself.

I accept the EU will continue to evolve and that might go in a direction that the UK isn't happy with.

But in your hypothesis our closest neighbours and trading partners are going in that direction anyway.
Surely then it's better for us to be involved and help form the future as opposed to standing up in their parliament, being incredibly insulting and instantly leaving. (all the while accepting their wage and pension pot)

Instead we have quite possible done horrendous damage to the UK by all but handing banking etc back across the channel.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

12 April 2016

Out of interest I went to the start of the thread to see if I could find anyone, one of the relentless pro-Brexit campaigners, explaining coherently why they wanted to leave. I wanted to see whether the reasons 'feel' like all this nightmare has been worth it, and whether they had any idea of a plan. After several pages, what I paste below is the best I could find. To think that we had an in-out referendum to resolve 'issues' such as this.

"Out for a few reasons.

I have more belief in this country and it's people's ability to thrive as a more independent nation just like the vast majority of other countries in the world, than those who are happy to defer to an EU overlord.

Prefer to have the chance to vote out the people who make the policies and laws that effect this country.

I would rather this country retain some sort of unique British identity rather than be subsumed into a multicultural mish mash.

Cooperation and partnership with our friends in Europe does not have to be conducted through an ever expanding all encompassing political project which is causing instability across Europe.

I welcome controlled immigration but we haven't got it. Immigration is too high over 50% of the public think this is a concern only by voting out do we regain the power to stem the flow.

I would rather the insufficient housing stock and any future builds be prioritised for UK citizens. Same goes for jobs.

This is a once in a lifetime chance they won't let us near real power ever again, far to risky, so think long term ... an inevitable drive to a Superstate including Turkey. There's another 70 million potential new UK citizens. Probably be bullied into having the Euro using the same doomsday arguments by the same vested interests at some point.

We can better spend the £13 Billion we sent to Brussels last year on projects like the NHS or revitalising a UK steel industry.

For those who are more anti establishment/ big business minded perhaps ask why the UK/European elites combined with big business all want us to stay in and threaten numerous doomsday scenarios if we dare think differently.

This will be the only chance we will ever get to exercise true direct power over the future of this country it would be a shame to do as we're told. "