Leighgull
New member
- Dec 27, 2012
- 2,377
My two-penny'worth.
1) Congratulations to the B&HA SC and the Gay Football Supporters Network for putting the work in compiling the reports. Long overdue and it's really moved the issue up the agenda, bravo.
2) The central issue for me in this entire debate (surprisingly not discussed enough in this thread, and sadly completely dodged by those opposing what the SC is doing) is why no gay professional footballer feels able to come out in this country and, alongside that, why there are so few out gay voices on football supporters forums like this one and those of other clubs - the obvious answer to me, is that there remains a very strong climate of discrimination even in these so-called enlightened times, and while the chanting identified by the SC might not be responsible for creating that (obviously it's a wider problem throughout society), it certainly reinforces it - and that's wrong and something must be done about it.
3) Is the example of how football has fought racism a realistic parallel? Yes - the parallel is strong with homophobia as both are anti-discrimination/civil rights issues.
4) But isn't it the same as anti-welsh, anti-scottish, anti-northern, anti-west country etc etc chants? Not at all - there is no widespread virulent discrimination in this country against people being from Wales or from Yorkshire or from Devon, etc etc so the comparison doesn't work - it's facile.
5) But doesn't it sterilise traditional football culture. No, modern all-seater stadia and high prices do that, not stopping racist and homophobic chanting. The proof is going to somewhere like the Millentor at St Pauli, where you'll see a far more vibrant terrace-based, singing-based atmosphere than you'll ever see at the Amex with its traditional gobby homophobic set of away fans - but these St Pauli fans have also led anti-racist/anti-homophobia campaigning.
6) How do you practically draw the line between milder comments ("holding hands") and more aggressive chanting ("queers" "aids" etc). I don't think you can, it's all got to go, just like all chanting references to a player's colour had to go in the past. Did we lose much by getting rid of mild racially-charged banter? No. My football experience won't be scarred by not hearing the holding hands chant again, will yours?
7) Think of the children! I have a lot of sympathy with those who don't want their kids to listen to homophobic chanting, my kids aged 6 and 10 have season tickets after all. But that's not my primary worry, I think parents can explain to kids right and wrong. I don't think we see kids being put off going to the Amex by homophobic chanting, judging by the large numbers that do go. But can we say the same about Brighton's large gay community? I think the chanting reinforces a hostile and unwelcoming atmosphere for gay fans attending the Amex, as racist chanting did for black fans at grounds up and down the country in the past, and that's the main reason why something must be done about it.
8) What about our gay chants that try to answer the homophobic gay chanting? Does it really have to be stated that chants aimed at belittling or confusing the homophobes are not themselves homophobic, as some seem to rather oddly believe on this thread? It's the intent behind the language that's crucial, not the language itself. I've chanted the "too ugly to be gay" many times, as I'm sure many have on here in an attempt to do SOMETHING. For me, as long as the authorities take so little action on this issue, it's perfectly legitimate for our fans to take direct action themselves and attempt to satirise and belittle the haters. In the circumstances when the authorities really start cracking down on homophobia in stadiums, then will our riposte chants confuse the issue and act as a defence cover for the haters? That's quite possible, but this then becomes an issue of tactical judgment at a certain time rather than of principle - it might be more sensible to put them on backburner in those circumstances if anti-homophobic laws start being properly enforced. But the authorities are NOT showing that willingness at the moment, so for me it remains open season on the homophobes and perfectly legitimate to fight fire with fire. And I'm pretty enough to be gay, which is an added bonus.
That's not two pennorth that's about £4.50.
A lot of words to say " it's not big or clever but we will keep shouting " too ugly" as long as they keep chanting " does your boyfriend".
This is a total non issue and part of me wishes that those with overly developed sensitivities would just go and support something sterile and corporate like Basketball. The Yiddo thing at spurs had been going on for longer than our gay issue and it hasn't been stopped by countless bleeding hearts.
Get over yourselves.