BBC news about the gay chants.

[Commander]

Well I'm not aware of opposing fans finding such stuff offensive enough to publically condemn them

And I think that says a lot about a certain section of Brighton fans. I just cannot fathom why people can't see the hypocrisy in it all. It is black and white!

 

[Triggaaar]

but then it must be accepted that some of the opposing fans may be equally offended by chants such as pikeys, slums, benefits, sheep shaggers, etc.

Pikeys, yes. That's quite a good example, because it's not going to offend the majority of Palace fans, but it can offend a race of travelers (although it's a complicated one, because it has more than one meaning). Slums, sheep shaggers - no. Calling people sheep shaggers is clearly a joke, they're not really shagging sheep (and if they are, they're breaking the law, and are not protected from insults).

It would only be fair to ban all such chants too....but is that what we really want?

No, because taking the piss out of someone's town is not against the law, and not the same as racism or homophobia.

What I'm TRYING to establish is are the chants homophobic, even the inoffensive ones? Yes or no.

Yes they are.

 

[Twinkle Toes]

Yet they may be in a small minority, with no Liz Costa type to speak up for them. Surely we have to consider their feelings too? It would be seen as pretty hypocritical to continue in the same vein when we are expecting preferential treatment?

Individuals don't have to do anything they don't want to do, but some of the time we may choose to.

 

[seabass1]

I was on the far left on Saturday and believe me it was not the place to be for the faint hearted at times, some of the things coming our way was beyond banter! But one thing I would like to add to the debate is that the old bill and the stewards in the stand would not look over at the home fans to see where it was coming from? I did have a chat with said old bill and all I got was do you want to make a complaint and after traveling all the way to Nottingham I had no intention of sitting in some office and missing part of the game and they know that !!! The mild banter does not bother me but there has to be a line drawn somewhere especially when it comes to dads walking with sons etc.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

The mild banter does not bother me but there has to be a line drawn somewhere especially when it comes to dads walking with sons etc.

Quite.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

And I think that says a lot about a certain section of Brighton fans. I just cannot fathom why people can't see the hypocrisy in it all. It is black and white!

Few things in this world are black and white. Thankfully.

 

[Triggaaar]

Times change, I agree. So where is the line drawn?

The line is clear: Racism and homophobia are illegal. Taking the piss out of a town for being shit is fine. Calling southerners soft, northerners dirty *******s, is allowed.

How can we say that we can't be taken the piss out for being a bunch of benders, when we are more than happy to take the piss out of Palace for being a bunch of pikeys? Tell me what the difference is? Are the traveller community offended by that?

I completely agree. If a race of travelers are offended by that, then it should stop (I think pikeys is just an unfortunate term because it means different things. I think most fans intend it as a general insult towards an underclass, not meant towards gypsies etc).

In 10-15 years time, will people look back and think "I can't believe we used to sing that" about Palace? Quite possibly. Is that a good thing? I don't think so. Do you?

I don't think we will look back and think that, for reasons given. But if we have to change from saying pikey to scumbag or something, it's no great loss to the world of football banter is it.

With the exception of a few scumbags, I think most of the gay chants are meant in relatively good humour

Yes they probably are, but it does encourage people around the country to think there's something wrong with being gay.

just the same as any of our chants about Ipswich being inbreds or whatever. Football has always been a piss-taking sport, more so than any other, and that's part of what makes the atmosphere at games better than any other sport.

And that won't change. This only happens when Brighton play, so there are 45 other league matches that manage an atmosphere without this incredibly witty banter. Banning homophobia from football matches obviously won't end the atmosphere at matches. And don't act like it's the thin end of the wedge, it's clearly not.

And also, anyone who thinks that if it was Croydon that had the large gay community rather than Brighton, we (as in a very high large percentage of Albion fans) wouldn't take the piss out of them for it, is completely deluded. We would.

Of course we would, who said otherwise? The point is, it would be wrong and should stop.

Again, I agree that times change and attitudes change, and in twenty years time we prbably won't get the same homophobic abuse that we occasionally get now outside away grounds and at stations etc. We'll sure as hell get it for something else though.

Good, and that's how you and I won't want it.

 

[Commander]

Calling people sheep shaggers is clearly a joke, they're not really shagging sheep (and if they are, they're breaking the law, and are not protected from insults).

Ridiculous. Chanting "We can see you holding hands is clearly a joke". We aren't really holding hands.

Sheep-shaggers is implying that because someone is Welsh, they indulge in bestiality. Racism, clear and simple. How can anyone say it isn't? So how can you say we are allowed to sing that, but the sheep-shaggers aren't allowed to respond with "Do you take it up the arse?" Tell me what the difference is. And what we are accusing them of there is a hell of a lot worse than what they are accusing us of!

No, because taking the piss out of someone's town is not against the law, and not the same as racism or homophobia.

Why is taking the piss out of where someone is from different to taking the piss out of someone's race? (or in other words, where someone is from).

Because its against the law? The law said homosexually was illegal not that long ago.

Hypocrisy, hypocrisy, hypocrisy.

 

[Brovion]

Well based on the fact that such chants are concerning a certain type of individual/group within society; & some individuals are offended by them & define it as Homophobic - then yes, there's a good case to suggest they are. Happy now?

Well you've wriggled a bit but I'm going to take that as a 'yes'. Fair enough. I would suggest that you are in a minority in saying that 'holding hands', 'boyfriend', '1-0 to the nancy boys' etc are on a par with the really vile chants, but I can't accuse you of hypocrisy. I also suspect you may well be in the vanguard and that in time the overall move towards sanitised football and the sheer force of the logic will also see the 'inoffensive' chants banned as well.

 

[Triggaaar]

It would be seen as pretty hypocritical to continue in the same vein when we are expecting preferential treatment?

Who are 'we'? Despite the crap reports on the news, this isn't about Brighton fans. Just read the posts here, not many Brighton fans are offended by the chants (I'm certainly not). The chants are not anti Brighton, they are anti gay, so they will offend a young gay fan from the opposing team a lot more than they will offend the average Brighton fan. Just like if we sang 'you're just a town full of pakis' to Bradford, how do you think Asian people from Brighton would feel about that?

So 'we' Brighton fans don't expect preferential treatment, I just expect gay people (from all teams) to be able to go to a match without people taking the piss out of homosexuality.

 

[PFJ]

The chants ,'holding hands.... Does your boyfriend ....etc. It is banter to the point of wind up.I sit in the Lower West and I can see them. When one of those chants goes up you can see their faces ...firstly they look as if it's the first time it's ever been sung and secondly they are checking to see if we have got a rise out of it. Then they wait for a retort. They sing it because it matches the sterotype of our town .Not because they think we are all gay . I think for the most part it is made in jest .
It falls on deaf ears and for most part they get a 'that old chestnut ' kind of clap. I long for something more inventive. I laughed when Leeds fans sang 'stand up 'cause you can't sit down' and I laughed when Cardiff fans at Withdean chanted 'I'd rather shag a sheep than a bloke'. It showed a bit of creative with that terrace culture is famous for. Was it bad to chuckle when we went 1-nil down to Luton and our fans chanted 1-nil to the Taliban?It wasn't sung by knuckle dragging neo nazi skinheads. Just our usual core away support . Maybe a naughty , but then so were Carry On films.
I think LC is in danger of becoming BHA's very own Mary Whitehouse. I for one did not share her views either .

 

[Triggaaar]

Ridiculous. Chanting "We can see you holding hands is clearly a joke". We aren't really holding hands.

It is specifically against people being gay, even if a lot of the people singing it don't mean it (some certainly do, as witnessed by some of the fans spitting venom).

Sheep-shaggers is implying that because someone is Welsh, they indulge in bestiality. Racism, clear and simple. How can anyone say it isn't?

Is it really implying that? I don't think it is. I don't think the fans really think that the Welsh are shagging sheep. Who is supposed to be offended by that chant? A Welsh person that doesn't shag sheep is not going to be offended, just like a Brighton fan that is not gay is not usually offended by the homophobic chanting. The people that are most likely to be offended by homophobic chanting (IMO) are those that are coming to terms with being gay (perhaps they're young, or not openly gay). By direct comparison, those that would be offended by 'sheep shagger' chants would be those that do shag sheep.

And what we are accusing them of there is a hell of a lot worse than what they are accusing us of!

As above, straight Brighton fans are not really offended that we're being accused of being gay, and Welsh people are not really offended that they're being accused of shagging sheep (at least I'm not, and I'm Welsh).

Why is taking the piss out of where someone is from different to taking the piss out of someone's race? (or in other words, where someone is from).

This may be the crux of you being unable to understand it all. You don't see why homophobia and racism is different to just taking the piss out of someone for living in a shit town.

 

[Twinkle Toes]

Well you've wriggled a bit but I'm going to take that as a 'yes'. Fair enough. I would suggest that you are in a minority in saying that 'holding hands', 'boyfriend', '1-0 to the nancy boys' etc are on a par with the really vile chants, but I can't accuse you of hypocrisy. I also suspect you may well be in the vanguard and that in time the overall move towards sanitised football and the sheer force of the logic will also see the 'inoffensive' chants banned as well.

You can draw whatever conclusions you want to, frankly. You seem to base your entire NSC act on some modern-day version of the 'Python skit which started with: "I'd like to have an argument please". I've already had more my quid's worth, but I'll be bailing on the course of 10. Still, I wouldn't worry if I were you - as no doubt they'll be plenty more in the queue after I've gone.

 

[Twinkle Toes]

And I think that says a lot about a certain section of Brighton fans. I just cannot fathom why people can't see the hypocrisy in it all. It is black and white!

I think many do see the hypocrisy, but choose not to act any differently.

 

[Commander]

It is specifically against people being gay, even if a lot of the people singing it don't mean it (some certainly do, as witnessed by some of the fans spitting venom).

Is it really implying that? I don't think it is. I don't think the fans really think that the Welsh are shagging sheep. Who is supposed to be offended by that chant? A Welsh person that doesn't shag sheep is not going to be offended, just like a Brighton fan that is not gay is not usually offended by the homophobic chanting. The people that are most likely to be offended by homophobic chanting (IMO) are those that are coming to terms with being gay (perhaps they're young, or not openly gay). By direct comparison, those that would be offended by 'sheep shagger' chants would be those that do shag sheep.

As above, straight Brighton fans are not really offended that we're being accused of being gay, and Welsh people are not really offended that they're being accused of shagging sheep (at least I'm not, and I'm Welsh).

This may be the crux of you being unable to understand it all. You don't see why homophobia and racism is different to just taking the piss out of someone for living in a shit town.

Yes, it is implying that, of course it is. Do you think that the fans singing gay songs at us really think that we all go home and make love to each other? Your argument has so many holes in it, you can't say one is OK if the other isn't, it doesn't make sense.

We're going round in circles so there's not much point in continuing, because all I'm going to do is keep repeating myself, and I do enough of that already.

As for me not being able to understand it all, it's more a case of you not being able to take a step back and realise that the reason you think racism and homophobia are so much worse than the isms that we partake in through taking the piss out of other fans for their stereotypes is just because those particular stereotypes haven't become trendy to get offended by yet. I'm sure they will, and eventually football will completely become the happy-clappy nicey nicey Brighton Brighton ra ra ra sport that a lot of the new breed of fans want it to be. And that will be the end of it for me, the sport that enthralled me as a kid through its edgyness, excitement, buzz and sometimes even a bit of intimidation, will finally be dead.

 

[Commander]

And that's me done, bored now. Brovion, I'll leave it up to you.

 

[Brovion]

You can draw whatever conclusions you want to, frankly. You seem to base your entire NSC act on some modern-day version of the 'Python skit which started with: "I'd like to have an argument please". I've already had more my quid's worth, but I'll be bailing on the course of 10. Still, I wouldn't worry if I were you - as no doubt they'll be plenty more in the queue after I've gone.

You couldn't be more wrong. I've just been trying to establish some facts and if it's come over as 'looking for an argument' it's only because it's been like trying to get blood out of a stone (I don't just mean you). Most people have been quite evasive as most people haven't really thought it through and it's taken a lot of prompting for people to look deeper than their initial knee-jerk reaction - and maybe taken themselves to places they weren't expecting. If some people have thought a bit deeper about the whole thing then it's been worth it, but I guess most will keep their prejudices and like you I've grown weary of the fray. Toodles.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Hooray.

This has been a victory for good old-fashioned British double-standards apparently. Because there are degrees of offence.

 

[birthofanorange]

Who are 'we'? Despite the crap reports on the news, this isn't about Brighton fans. Just read the posts here, not many Brighton fans are offended by the chants (I'm certainly not). The chants are not anti Brighton, they are anti gay, so they will offend a young gay fan from the opposing team a lot more than they will offend the average Brighton fan. Just like if we sang 'you're just a town full of pakis' to Bradford, how do you think Asian people from Brighton would feel about that?

So 'we' Brighton fans don't expect preferential treatment, I just expect gay people (from all teams) to be able to go to a match without people taking the piss out of homosexuality.

I'm sorry to say that the "we" is a collective "we", as in how Brighton as a club are being portrayed in the media. It's irrelevant that the poll on NSC shows otherwise, as most of the people in the country don't read it.

And I have highlighted a part of your post as it describes exactly what most of the chants are.....simply taking the piss - not hatred for homosexuals. There are laws already in place for that as there are for more personal intimidation outside and inside the ground.

 

[Triggaaar]

Yes, it is implying that, of course it is. Do you think that the fans singing gay songs at us really think that we all go home and make love to each other? Your argument has so many holes in it

They don't think we all do, but clearly they think some do, and they're right - some fans are gay.

you can't say one is OK if the other isn't, it doesn't make sense.

It makes complete sense. A lot of people are gay, and that's ok - they get married and everything. People don't really have sex with sheep (and if one or two do, that's not ok) - how the hell you can compare the two things as if they're the same is beyond me.

As for me not being able to understand it all, it's more a case of you not being able to take a step back and realise that the reason you think racism and homophobia are so much worse than the isms that we partake in through taking the piss out of other fans for their stereotypes is just because those particular stereotypes haven't become trendy to get offended by yet.

Rubbish. I can tell what's right and what's wrong, it's nothing to do with what's trendy.

I'm sure they will, and eventually football will completely become the happy-clappy nicey nicey Brighton Brighton ra ra ra sport that a lot of the new breed of fans want it to be. And that will be the end of it for me, the sport that enthralled me as a kid through its edgyness, excitement, buzz and sometimes even a bit of intimidation, will finally be dead.

That's such a ridiculous argument. As I pointed out, every other match manages edginess, excitement and buzz without the need for homophobia, but you act like it will all be over if we stop homophobia.

I'm sorry to say that the "we" is a collective "we", as in how Brighton as a club are being portrayed in the media.

The media reports are crap, so what. The point is, homophobia in matches isn't needed, it doesn't add to the atmosphere, and it would be better to leave it in the past.

And I have highlighted a part of your post as it describes exactly what most of the chants are.....simply taking the piss - not hatred for homosexuals.

It will be a mix. Most will just be taking the piss, but some will mean it more than that. So do you think fans should be allowed to take the piss by signing 'you're just a town full of pakis' or is that somehow different?