Syncronized dies in the national

[BadFish]

My sister is a horse rider and it is her dream to win the Grand National. As i know the people at the stables she goes so, ive asked things like this to them before. You can tell if a Horse is happy or not as its ears will be pricked up, and id say that all the horses had that today as they know what they are going to do.

Also, a Horse DOES have a choice, if it does not want to jump a fence - IT WILL NOT JUMP THAT FENCE. My sister has fell of plenty of Horses who have refused to jump a fence and the jockey will be able to tell if the Horse is happy or not by the way it acts (not quite sure how but ill take their word for it), if the Jockey isnt happy, then they will pull up and withdraw from the race, the safety of the Horse and jockey are the main priorities.

Also, stop scaremongering people with the "the Horse will be put down and its meat will be exported to other countries" comment - this does not happen in this country at least and it never will do.

Virtually all of the meat from horses slaughtered in the UK is exported to the rest of Europe, as it is still highly prized in some countries.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/06/racehorse-slaughter-animal-welfare

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

'Fed'

Physical Suffering

The feeding of high concentrate diets (grains) fed during training rather than extended grazing, leads to gastric ulcers - a study of race horses at Randwick (NSW) found that 89% had stomach ulcers, and many of the horses had deep, bleeding ulcers within 8 weeks of the commencement of their training (Newby J, "Welfare issues raised by racehorse ulcer study", The Veterinarian, March 2000).

Muscular-skeletal injuries and lameness cause considerable suffering to horses in training of all ages.

'Trained'

Internal Race Injuries

The exertion of the races leads a large proportion of horses to bleed into their lungs and windpipe (Exercise-Induced Pulmonary Haemorrhage). This has only been fully realized in recent years when endoscopes have been used to carry out internal examinations via the throat. A study carried out by the University of Melbourne found that a massive 50% of horses had blood in the windpipe, and 90% has blood deeper in the lungs.

Or the 'lucky sods'

Wastage’—
the Terrible Term Used for the Routine Discarding of Racing Horses

You can count on one or two hands, the Melbourne cup winners that now graze on beautiful paddocks in their retirement. The vast majority of thoroughbreds (flat and jumps racers) and standardbred (harness racers) horses fail to run fast enough or become injured and are just discarded by the racing industry.

A study conducted by researchers at the University of Sydney [‘Epidemiology of horses leaving the Thoroughbred and Standardbred racing industries, by Hayek AR, Jones B, Evans DL, Thomson PC and McGreevy PD - Proceedings of the 1st International Equitation Science Symposium August 2005] attempted to track ex-racing horses. Similar to other studies they found almost 40% of race horses leave the industry each year due to poor performance, illness or injury or behavioural or other problems.
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Where Do They Go?

Many failed or older racehorses will be destined for slaughter, and may go to local knackeries (used for pet meat for example) or be purchased for slaughter at the two horse abattoirs in Australia (Peterborough in SA and Caboolture in QLD). Approximately 2,000 tonnes of horse meat is exported for human consumption in Japan and Europe annually (ABS figures). Over 25,000 horses per year are killed in this way in Australia.

The long distance transport of horses (for human consumption) is not well monitored or regulated. Travel is usually stressful for horses, and research shows that even travel of 6 hours causes suppression of the immune system (an indicator of welfare problems) - horses may be transported for several days to the export slaughterhouses.

[Discarded Horses] Some horses considered unwanted (‘wastage’) by the racing industry will go for riding, eventing or other uses, but the majority will not be wanted and are likely to be sent for slaughter, either directly, through auctions or ‘eventually’ when other uses fail or are completed.

It is difficult to estimate the portion of those horses slaughtered that are from the racing industries. However, given the large number of foals born for racing each year (17,000+ Thoroughbred, and 9,000+ Standardbred), the high attrition rate in the industry, and the constancy of the number of horses in the racing and breeding sectors of the industry, that portion is likely to be significant. A study by Doughty (2008) found that 52.9% of horses studied at one Australian export abattoir carried brands indicating they were of racing origin and a further portion fitted the breed specifications for racing horses, but had no brand (i.e. perhaps discarded before being registered to race). [Ref. Access to the Doughty (2008) and Hayek (2005) studies at http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-is-horse-wastage-in-the-racehorse-industry_235.html]
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The RSPCA are a joke.

They put down more healthy animals than any other organisation in the nation.

Hypocrisy rules supreme with them.

 

[BadFish]

Really?

Me thinks you don't know a lot about horses other than what you read on those stupid biased sites.

Thoroughbreds are always going to be more prone to injuries no matter where they are because they are finer in build and overall more skittish in nature than a standard bred horse.

Combine this with their higher speeds and it's only natural they will be far more prone to paddock accidents than standard bred horses.

The incidence of thoroughbred racing horses dying in paddocks compared to harness racing standard breds is significantly higher.

To simply push the blame onto something or someone else to dismiss examples of a common occurrence is lazy.

If I am reading stupid biased sites then please furnish me with some intelligent unbiased sites rather than the biased opinion of a self confessed racing fan. I will admit to my bias but I have also backed it up with references and statistics. will you do the same for yours?

Given that, as stated earlier my mother has kept horses for whole time I have been alive and i have grown up around them and riding them, i suspect that I know a little more than you think.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

If I am reading stupid biased sites then please furnish me with some intelligent unbiased sites rather than the biased opinion of a self confessed racing fan. I will admit to my bias but I have also backed it up with references and statistics. will you do the same for yours?

Given that, as stated earlier my mother has kept horses for whole time I have been alive and i have grown up around them and riding them, i suspect that I know a little more than you think.

I provided examples of horses dying in paddocks as a very common occurrence. You made excuses for why it happens with your bias attached to your reasoning rather than anything actually related to the horses themselves.

You really can't take the high ground on what horses should and shouldn't do when you admit you ride/rode horses.

The only reason those horses were ridden was for YOUR enjoyment. You're no different from those in the racing industry in that you exploited a horse for your own benefit.

At any time the horses you rode could have sustained injuries. So why is that any less "barbaric" than anyone else riding a horse?

More horses are put down racing on the flat than over the jump every year in Australia.

 

[BadFish]

I provided examples of horses dying in paddocks as a very common occurrence. You made excuses for why it happens with your bias attached to your reasoning rather than anything actually related to the horses themselves.

You really can't take the high ground on what horses should and shouldn't do when you admit you ride/rode horses.

The only reason those horses were ridden was for YOUR enjoyment. You're no different from those in the racing industry in that you exploited a horse for your own benefit.

At any time the horses you rode could have sustained injuries. So why is that any less "barbaric" than anyone else riding a horse?

More horses are put down racing on the flat than over the jump every year in Australia.

Got a reference for the bit in bold?

As for the rest of it.

Brilliant!

I'm off down the TAB.

 

[desprateseagull]

very sad indeeed.

One year, they should let all the horses go round, without jockeys..

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Got a reference for the bit in bold?

As for the rest of it.

Brilliant!

I'm off down the TAB.

It's called following the sport.

How would you know what happens in the sport if you don't follow it?

 

[BadFish]

It's called following the sport.

How would you know what happens in the sport if you don't follow it?

That is called research:

A 15 year study into catastrophic injuries in flat and jumps racehorses (between 1989
– 2004) was conducted by Dr Lisa Boden and presented at the International
Symposium for the Prevention of Thoroughbred Racehorse Fatalities and Injuries in
July 2005.

Fatalities: Jump horses: one death for every 115 horses that start in a race
Flat horses: one death for every 2150 horses that start in a race

Catastrophic limb injuries: 18 times more likely in jump races than in flat races
Cranial (head) or vertebral (back and neck) injuries: 121 times more likely in jump
races than flat races

Sudden death 3.5 times more likely in jump races (most sudden deaths attributed to
catastrophic cardiovascular or respiratory failure)

These statistics provide clear evidence that jumps horses are pushed far beyond their
normal limits, and are subjected to much greater physical, psychological and
physiological stress than flat racehorses. Jumps horses are forced to experience the
frightening ordeal of jumping over fixed obstacles for long distances, at speed and
when fatigued, which interferes with their limb co-ordination.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

That is called research:

A 15 year study into catastrophic injuries in flat and jumps racehorses (between 1989
– 2004) was conducted by Dr Lisa Boden and presented at the International
Symposium for the Prevention of Thoroughbred Racehorse Fatalities and Injuries in
July 2005.

Fatalities: Jump horses: one death for every 115 horses that start in a race
Flat horses: one death for every 2150 horses that start in a race

Catastrophic limb injuries: 18 times more likely in jump races than in flat races
Cranial (head) or vertebral (back and neck) injuries: 121 times more likely in jump
races than flat races

Sudden death 3.5 times more likely in jump races (most sudden deaths attributed to
catastrophic cardiovascular or respiratory failure)

These statistics provide clear evidence that jumps horses are pushed far beyond their
normal limits, and are subjected to much greater physical, psychological and
physiological stress than flat racehorses. Jumps horses are forced to experience the
frightening ordeal of jumping over fixed obstacles for long distances, at speed and
when fatigued, which interferes with their limb co-ordination.

That is called misleading.

Going by those statistics several hundred more flat horses die each year in races because the amount of horses that start in flat races compared to jumps races is tens of thousands times more.

Do you even realise how few jumps races happen and what the size of the fields are?

There's a great irony in such a song and dance being made over 5-10 horses dying a year in jumps when nothing is said about the hundreds of flat horses that are put down each year.

 

[BadFish]

That is called misleading.

Going by those statistics several hundred more flat horses die each year in races because the amount of horses that start in flat races compared to jumps races is tens of thousands times more.

Do you even realise how few jumps races happen and what the size of the fields are?

There's a great irony in such a song and dance being made over 5-10 horses dying a year in jumps when nothing is said about the hundreds of flat horses that are put down each year.

I await the correct statistics.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I await the correct statistics.

The mathematics is simple if you understand how many horse races occur each day,week,month,year.

Which it seems you don't if you don't follow the sport.

Do you realise that the total amount of jumps races is 48 for the whole year? The total amount of flat races held per week is at an avg of around 50.

There's more flat races in one week than a whole season of jumps racing.

Nothing like perspective.

 

[BadFish]

The mathematics is simple if you understand how many horse races occur each day,week,month,year.

Which it seems you don't if you don't follow the sport.

Do you realise that the total amount of jumps races is 48 for the whole year? The total amount of flat races held per week is at an avg of around 50.

There's more flat races in one week than a whole season of jumps racing.

Nothing like perspective.

None of this disproves the statistics i gave.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

None of this disproves the statistics i gave.

Do you understand the statistics you're reading though?

To understand them you'd have to understand the amount of races held and the size of the fields.

Without that understanding those statistics are meaninglessness.

If I collated those statistics to 48 races times an avg of 6 starters per race that would mean only 2 horses died per season. There are no jumps races held at Picnic/non TAB meetings

If I applied the same mathematical theory to flat races avg 10 horses per race, 19500 races per year divided by 2100 horses and you've got nearly 100 dead horses there. Those are only the meetings covered by the TAB. Picnic/non TAB meetings are not included in race start statistics which adds even further to the death rate.

As I said, perspective.

 

[BadFish]

Do you understand the statistics you're reading though?

To understand them you'd have to understand the amount of races held and the size of the fields.

Without that understanding those statistics are meaninglessness.

If I collated those statistics to 48 races times an avg of 6 starters per race that would mean only 2 horses died per season. There are no jumps races held at Picnic/non TAB meetings

If I applied the same mathematical theory to flat races avg 10 horses per race, 19500 races per year divided by 2100 horses and you've got nearly 100 dead horses there. Those are only the meetings covered by the TAB. Picnic/non TAB meetings are not included in race start statistics which adds even further to the death rate.

As I said, perspective.

More horses run in flat races so more die? Is that what you are telling me?

The point made by those statistics is that it is far more dangerous to race horses over jumps. Possibly because they are not naturally designed to jump.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

More horses run in flat races so more die? Is that what you are telling me?

The point made by those statistics is that it is far more dangerous to race horses over jumps. Possibly because they are not naturally designed to jump.

The point is if it was all about the animals welfare and it not dying then the protests and gnashing of teeth need not be directed at just jumps racing but ALL forms of interaction with horses.

We don't need to ride horses in this day and age. It's purely a selfish human pursuit surely?

So why the angst over 4-5 horses dying and not the whole horse spectrum?

 

[BadFish]

The point is if it was all about the animals welfare and it not dying then the protests and gnashing of teeth need not be directed at just jumps racing but ALL forms of interaction with horses.

We don't need to ride horses in this day and age. It's purely a selfish human pursuit surely?

So why the angst over 4-5 horses dying and not the whole horse spectrum?

You really can't see that some horse based activities are more dangerous for the horse than others?

I think it is a little more that 4-5 that people are complaining about (by your own made up statistics that fugure has changed from 5-10 two pages ago to 4-5 here so it is hard to ague against that point)

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

You really can't see that some horse based activities are more dangerous for the horse than others?

I think it is a little more that 4-5 that people are complaining about (by your own made up statistics that fugure has changed from 5-10 two pages ago to 4-5 here so it is hard to ague against that point)

I see a lot more horses dying in flat races than in jumps racing. So from where I sit that is just as dangerous to the animals as a whole.

You must understand that people who watch and follow the sport yearly have to take umbrage at the opinions of people who don't even follow the sport but appear each time when something in the paper appears with a "ban it" attitude.

The funny thing is that racing fans hold the horses in a far higher esteem than the no marks who want it all banned.

Those people just see them as a horse, to the fan of the horse it achievements create a life long emotional attachment to it.

Look at Red Rum and how he endeared himself to a nation.

 

[BadFish]

I see a lot more horses dying in flat races than in jumps racing. So from where I sit that is just as dangerous to the animals as a whole.

You must understand that people who watch and follow the sport yearly have to take umbrage at the opinions of people who don't even follow the sport but appear each time when something in the paper appears with a "ban it" attitude.

The funny thing is that racing fans hold the horses in a far higher esteem than the no marks who want it all banned.

Those people just see them as a horse, to the fan of the horse it achievements create a life long emotional attachment to it.

Look at Red Rum and how he endeared himself to a nation.

As a 'no mark' i think i will leave this discussion.

I will leave you with this thought:

Holding something in high regard because it has made you money or given you a great memory is not the same as caring what happens to it.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

As a no mark i think i will leave this discussion before things get ugly.

I wasn't referring to you.

More to the people who spread all the untruths and demonize the people who work in the industry. There's just sections of people out there who swallow all of the bullshit put out there buy hypocrites like the RSPCA.

 

[BadFish]

I wasn't referring to you.

More to the people who spread all the untruths and demonize the people who work in the industry. There's just sections of people out there who swallow all of the bullshit put out there buy hypocrites like the RSPCA.

I am still interested in reading any info you have that contradicts the 'bullshit' as you put it.

For the record i don't think that racing should be banned but I think the practices of many race meetings, owners, stables and trainers need to be looked at carefully. Dismissing so many objections based on what appears to be decent studies without rebuttel or contrary evidence seems to me to be folly in today's climate.