Ejections and standing at Southampton away

[Notters]

Broken the lawn? Not since I used a really, really heavy mower.

My job is to train stewards to keep dimwits like you safe because you don't understand the bigger picture. My steward work at football, rugby, cricket, music and other events where there will be spectators. The only people who cause them grief are f***ing idiot football fans who think they know best and want to impose their will on the rest of the crowd - who generally tell us that the people who stand are idiots and can we get them to sit down or chuck them out.

Now, be a good boy and go f*** your sister - Notters is having a go on your brother at the moment.

I don't think I've ever been so directly involved in a binfest. Could you please tell me what this bigger picture is? The one that says it's ok to stand at a metal gig but not at a football match?

Of course I don't think it's ok to steal; that hurts someone. I don't think it's ok for a bus driver to have a skinful either - that could hurt a lot of people. My standing up does not hurt anyone and therein lies the difference. The worst bit, for me, is that you're allowed to stand up at times of excitement but not the rest of the time. How does that fit into your bigger picture?

...and what's all the homophobia got to do with anything?

I'm afraid it's past my bed time, so good night.

 

[Hiney]

To imply that by choosing to stand they are committing some sort of crime is damn right naive (irrespective of what the terms and conditions on the ticket state.)

But it actually IS the law isn't it?

 

[Billy the Fish]

But it actually IS the law isn't it?

Doesn't make it right though does it.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

No actual response to what I've said, have you never broken the law?

Yep - broke the law lots. Why are you so concerned with that?

Did you not understand the part about buying a ticket which says that you will make a conscious decision to follow the ground regulations? If your arse is too sore to sit down then come and find me and I will get you a pillow so you don't have to stand up and make a complete twat of yourself.

I don't make the laws, and in fact I don't enforce them. I train the guys that do and I ensure that they understand why they enforce them. I really don't care whether you agree with them or not, and if you had made a little bit of effort to read this thread and the other Southampton one you would have seen that. But you came in off the deep end and it would appear that you have been marked as a twat by quite a few other people now. Well done.

Seriously, if you want to discuss this in a proper manner then feel free to make yourself known to one of my guys at Southampton - ask them for the Training and Assessment Staff and they will come and get me.

If you want to give yourself a hard on by gobbing off behind a keyboard, then that's fine as well.

 

[Sam Ovett]

Seems fair enough for stewards to do what they are employed to do. Considering that most of them have the fans health and enjoyment as priorities. Some fans may not be able to stand up for the entire match, and it is still possible for people to sing whilst sitting.

A follow up could be to say that those wanting to sit down can sit elsewhere, but the stewards follow the stadium's rules, which state people sit where their ticket allocates them; therefore don't take into account this idea.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

I don't think I've ever been so directly involved in a binfest. Could you please tell me what this bigger picture is? The one that says it's ok to stand at a metal gig but not at a football match?

Of course I don't think it's ok to steal; that hurts someone. I don't think it's ok for a bus driver to have a skinful either - that could hurt a lot of people. My standing up does not hurt anyone and therein lies the difference. The worst bit, for me, is that you're allowed to stand up at times of excitement but not the rest of the time. How does that fit into your bigger picture?

...and what's all the homophobia got to do with anything?

I'm afraid it's past my bed time, so good night.

Sorry Notters - dropped your name in by mistake! I was trying to point out to the duty idiot that laws are not selective. I don't make the laws, but I have a duty to ensure that the guys and girls I train are aware of them and can enforce them - if they don't and something goes wrong, it's no use to them using NSC as a defence! Short periods of standing at football are fine - they are controllable. It's the extended periods that seem to cause problems for some reason.

The homophobia was to point out, again to the duty idiot, that he knew nothing about me so I was making a sweeping generalisation that as a Brighton fan he must be gay.

I think it is past his bedtime as well. Certainly past his intelligence level.

 

[poidy]

But it actually IS the law isn't it?

The point i was trying to make was in the grand old scheme of things should standing up at the football really be considered a criminal offence?

Anyone who things the answer to this is YES is seriously deluded and needs some education into what constitutes a criminal offence.

Murder=Criminal Offence
Rape=Criminal Offence
ABH=Criminal Offence
GBH=Criminal Offence
Drink Driving=Criminal Offence
Theft=Criminal Offence
Acts of Terrorism=Criminal Offence


Standing up at St Mary's=??

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

The great thing about a forum and its sole purpose is that everyone has an opinion and its an opportunity to voice that opinion.

Whilst i understand the legalities of the matter im not going to pretend i agree with them. The sole reason being that for myself and many others sitting at a football match simply takes the enjoyment out of it and ruins the atmosphere. Now when folk spend in excess of 100 GBP for an away trip they want to maximise the enjoyment for this expense. To imply that by choosing to stand they are committing some sort of crime is damn right naive (irrespective of what the terms and conditions on the ticket state.)

My concern when we play Southampton is that we are now going to have a ridiculous number of stewards being both unreasonable and lacking in any form of common sense. Judging by the brief they seem to have recieved from yourself i cant see this being far from the truth.

Football is predominantly watched by a working class audience and its about time you realise this. You sit down to watch a movie at the cinema or when you take your missus to the theatre, but anyone who accepts this at the football is a fool (I would however like to point out that when my standing is impeding the view of someone behind me such as an elderly individual i do apply common sense and reason to this and take my seat.)

Whilst i clearly dont agree with your policies and what the law states if asked to sit down DIRECTLY by a steward then i will reluctuntly do so. Whilst it is the worst case scenario, recieving any type of banning order is more than my jobs worth. That said i will push my luck to a degree. I actually cant believe im sat here discussing standing up at the football and banning orders in the same sentance.

Absolutely ridiculous

We try to apply common sense where we can - when we come across people who actively set out to cause an issue then the issue has to be dealt with.

As for football being "working class" - do we even have a working class anymore? And don't the working class go to the pictures?

You will have a large number of stewards who will simply do their job - but ultimately they are there to protect you from the Northam lot and from the idiots that we seem to take with us these days. Look back over the threads and you can see that we have fans that we probably would rather supported someone else.

If you sit when asked, and when you are blocking views, then that is the common sense approach - and one that is normally fine. There are certain matches where emotions run higher (this is going to be one) and having fans standing and taunting is only going to lead to problems - it happened when Bournemouth came.

Ultimately we want to make sure everyone enjoys the game and that may involve asking people to sit down for the benefit of others - as you have already identified. The stewards don't want confrontation - too much paperwork. They want to earn their cash the easiest way possible, as do most of us. I want them to learn their job without drama and stress - most of them are youngsters who are simply there because they enjoy being at the football. If we were all "power crazed nazis" then we would all be in boots, combat trousers and black gloves - and none of us are.

 

[Foolg]

The point i was trying to make was in the grand old scheme of things should standing up at the football really be considered a criminal offence?

Anyone who things the answer to this is YES is seriously deluded and needs some education into what constitutes a criminal offence.

Murder=Criminal Offence
Rape=Criminal Offence
ABH=Criminal Offence
GBH=Criminal Offence
Drink Driving=Criminal Offence
Theft=Criminal Offence
Acts of Terrorism=Criminal Offence


Standing up at St Mary's=??

No, and I doubt you'll find a football fan too easily who is not for safe standing on some scale. But such is the ridiculous extent of this countries health and safety laws today, it is considered illegal. The question one must ask though, which someone did earlier, is that whats the difference between standing at football, and standing at a heavy metal concert which is completely legal.
This is the law, like it or loathe it, I dont like it but there's ways around it that dont result in you being kicked out. The result of events that happened over 20 years ago, that would never happen again, yes we all know its frustrating. But to throw insults at someone (not refering to yourself) for simply doing their job is extremely childish.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

The point i was trying to make was in the grand old scheme of things should standing up at the football really be considered a criminal offence?

Anyone who things the answer to this is YES is seriously deluded and needs some education into what constitutes a criminal offence.

Murder=Criminal Offence
Rape=Criminal Offence
ABH=Criminal Offence
GBH=Criminal Offence
Drink Driving=Criminal Offence
Theft=Criminal Offence
Acts of Terrorism=Criminal Offence


Standing up at St Mary's=??

Granted, it's a minor offence - but the law is on the statute books. Blame the 80s. Most of them are to do with invading the playing area and associated spaces, throwing things on the pitch, being drunk or drinking in view of the pitch, racist chanting, behaviour likely to cause offence. It all links back to the hoolie days and whilst we are generally past them now it's not easy to "cancel" a law. I believe the laws relating to Football Events could be changing over the next few years and that may be the chance to return to standing areas, etc. A lot of the banning orders do tend to be associated with the upper level of offences but it's a true statement that even swearing in a football ground can get you banned - and we all know that most of the swearing comes from pitchside!

I was a Goldstone North Stand child and I would agree the atmosphere has gone from football, but football is ultimately a business which needs to attract as many people as possible through the gates - and if that means stifling the people that bring life to the ground, then that is what the business is going to do, whether we agree with it or not.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

No, and I doubt you'll find a football fan too easily who is not for safe standing on some scale. But such is the ridiculous extent of this countries health and safety laws today, it is considered illegal. The question one must ask though, which someone did earlier, is that whats the difference between standing at football, and standing at a heavy metal concert which is completely legal.
This is the law, like it or loathe it, I dont like it but there's ways around it that dont result in you being kicked out. The result of events that happened over 20 years ago, that would never happen again, yes we all know its frustrating. But to throw insults at someone (not refering to yourself) for simply doing their job is extremely childish.

It's to do with the licensing of the events. Football fans are paying for the 70s/80s and the horrors that occured at Hillsborough, Heysel and Bradford were used as vehicles to put this legislation through. Standing at music events is something that will not change - but the actual event is managed to control problems that may occur, the band and crowd are profiled for likely events, etc - there was some info on the other thread about how bands work with the event management teams. The stewards that work at football also work at loads of other events and have to understand how to switch the policies from place to place, event to event. The way that Daniel O'Donnell is managed (God help me from ever, ever having to work at one of his events again!) to the way that Motorhead or Eminem are managed is done through specific individual risk assessments. I have the work for the Isle of Wight Festival that a friend of mine managed from a security/stewarding point of view and it is huge!

Ultimately, we have to work within the rules that are in place. Trying to flout the rules puts the people working there in the position that they have to take action. If people are sensible about the whole thing then it all goes well.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I don't believe it makes any sense at all for individual stewards to have discretion as to how they enforce the regulations. That way lies inconsistency and unfairness.

What is needed (and, broadly speaking, what actually happens) is for football clubs to be clear about how they will approach the question of standing. They will no doubt interpret their requirements in different ways. We've had the tip-off that Southampton won't tolerate what Charlton tolerated a couple of weeks back.

That may not be "logical" or "fair", but it's clear. It might put some people off and they will give St Mary's a miss. But it won't put most of us off going.

 

[Brovion]

I really struggle with why some fans have this desperation to stand in the seated areas. It really takes all the enjoyment out of it for me and it's why I don't go to away games any more. Don't get me wrong, I think the away fans are a credit to the club and do a terrific job supporting the team, and they do create a great atmosphere. But if clubs are going to let away fans stand, it would be nice to another area where they could sit and I don't just mean the front of the area where people are standing.

Agree to an extent, but some people just prefer standing, end of story. We all know standing for a whole game is illegal, yada yada yada, but there you go. It's like an addiction, it just feels right. However some people like sitting. I personally think sitting down to watch football is like sitting down to dance but each to his own.

As you say the problem is that both types of fan are forced to share the same area. But don't blame the standers - blame the system. Or to be more specific blame the 1989 Football Spectators Act which just assumed there was or ever could be one type of fan.

Until there's some acknowledgement that people are different and can't all be expected to behave in the same prescribed, official, legally-sanctioned way this debate will run and run. The alternative is that 'they' will win and in future football grounds will be full of people who prefer to sit and/or those who dutifully follow every barked command.

 

[Brovion]

I don't believe it makes any sense at all for individual stewards to have discretion as to how they enforce the regulations. That way lies inconsistency and unfairness.

What is needed (and, broadly speaking, what actually happens) is for football clubs to be clear about how they will approach the question of standing. They will no doubt interpret their requirements in different ways. We've had the tip-off that Southampton won't tolerate what Charlton tolerated a couple of weeks back.

That may not be "logical" or "fair", but it's clear. It might put some people off and they will give St Mary's a miss. But it won't put most of us off going.

That is a very good point. A classic example is that the law says that people should remain seated all the while the game is in progress, this includes when a goal is scored (the game is still 'in progress' as the clock is running). No steward on earth would insist that people stay seated after their team has scored, and so already there is 'slippage' as it is accepted that people can stand at 'moments of excitement'.

So what constitutes a 'moment of excitement'? For some people it's their team getting a throw-in. And when does standing for this 'moment of excitement' become 'persistent standing'? Because there are no hard and fast rules to cover this it's down to the interpretation of the individual stewards/teams and thus inconsistencies (and conflict) occur.

Basically it's a shit, knee jerk law brought in, as Hampshire Seagulls says, to counter the problems of the 1970s and 80s culminating in Hillsborough.

 

[Knotty]

Basically it's a shit, knee jerk law brought in, as Hampshire Seagulls says, to counter the problems of the 1970s and 80s culminating in Hillsborough.

Exactly. It's a very bad law, but it is the law.

Instead of the mindless, childish abuse aimed at stewards who don't deserve it (although some do, I know) all football supporters should be campaigning to get standing areas re-instated. There is no doubt that the atmosphere is better when standing but, at my age, I prefer to sit. If someone stands in front of me I get very angry and I have every right to be able to see the pitch whilst sitting.

The only way to solve this is by having dedicated standing areas.

It may be unlikely that the law can be changed but it shouldn't stop us trying.

 

[Icy Gull]

I have no problem with sitting down but if we sell 3000 odd tickets will it not end up like Charlton? Did anyone sit down there apart from at half time??

 

[Brovion]

Exactly. It's a very bad law, but it is the law.

Instead of the mindless, childish abuse aimed at stewards who don't deserve it (although some do, I know) all football supporters should be campaigning to get standing areas re-instated. There is no doubt that the atmosphere is better when standing but, at my age, I prefer to sit. If someone stands in front of me I get very angry and I have every right to be able to see the pitch whilst sitting.

The only way to solve this is by having dedicated standing areas.

It may be unlikely that the law can be changed but it shouldn't stop us trying.

I agree and sympathise with you. As someone said on another thread no one wants to see All-Standing grounds.

Where we probably disagree (and where Hampshire Seagulls would defintely disagree!) is that I think that part of the protest is to continue to stand. Yes groups like the FSA should use political pressure but there is an 'armed struggle' element to this as well. On a wider point I do think the law is unjust and unfair and we in Britain have had a history (in the past anyway) of disobedience in the face of unjust laws. Even the actual playing of football was banned at one time! If it were just a few of us who stood up, if everybody else just treated a football match like a Cliff Richard concert or the centre court at Wimbledon then I would accept that the majority accepted the law and therefore it would be 'wrong' to break it. But as we know that isn't the case.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Yes, the only reason you could stand the time before is that it was on tv. I got thrown out for standing the first time we went to st mary's, along with many others and for this reason I'll never go there again.

and that they do no sell Harvey's....

 

[Notters]

and that they do no sell Harvey's....

I would hate it if they sold Harveys all round the country; I like trying out the different ales. Ringwood in Soton, Robinsons in Stockport, Jennings in Carlisle, Otter in Yeovil, etc.

 

[WATFORD zero]

What's all this talk of changing the law - Can't we get back to abusing the Albion supporter who tried to help by giving us some inside info on what will happen at Southampton