[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[raymondo]

At some point, at some stage in the future, probably after the war is over (if we ever reach that point), I would like to see a really well-considered, well judged attempt at explaining why Russians consistently see a world that doesn't exist, and which is the polar opposite to all the available evidence.

Admit nothing. Deny everything. Accuse your enemies of the exact same crimes you commit.

 

[Eric the meek]

Admit nothing. Deny everything. Accuse your enemies of the exact same crimes you commit.

That describes what they do. It doesn't explain - why - they do it.

Why they do it, might be because it has worked in Russia for generations, where justice (for lying, committing crimes, making false accusations) can be avoided/bypassed by strong-arm tactics and/or corruption etc. They don't know any different.

But by invading Ukraine, they have showcased to the whole world, the darkness of Russia. A strategic mistake.

Government and oppression, by fear, has a shelf life.

 

[Sirnormangall]

That describes what they do. It doesn't explain - why - they do it.

Why they do it, might be because it has worked in Russia for generations, where justice (for lying, committing crimes, making false accusations) can be avoided/bypassed by strong-arm tactics and/or corruption etc. They don't know any different.

But by invading Ukraine, they have showcased to the whole world, the darkness of Russia. A strategic mistake.

Government and oppression, by fear, has a shelf life.

I think they do it to wrong-foot their enemies, make the Kremlin unpredictable. They do it very successfully - I’m amazed at how Putin, Lavrov and others keep a straight face with the rubbish they come out with.

 

[Triggaaar]

At some point, at some stage in the future, probably after the war is over (if we ever reach that point), I would like to see a really well-considered, well judged attempt at explaining why Russians consistently see a world that doesn't exist, and which is the polar opposite to all the available evidence.

Where is the evidence that they see a world that doesn't exist?

 

[Eric the meek]

I think they do it to wrong-foot their enemies, make the Kremlin unpredictable. They do it very successfully - I’m amazed at how Putin, Lavrov and others keep a straight face with the rubbish they come out with.

Yes, that's the maskirovka, which we are all familiar with.

But by the law of diminishing returns, I would argue that the more they do it now (when the whole world is aware of it), the less effective it is.
Yet they still appear unable or unwilling to change their strategy.

 

[Eric the meek]

Where is the evidence that they see a world that doesn't exist?

Nazis in Ukraine? Repression of Russian speakers in Ukraine?

Yes, we know that the originators of this nonsense lie through their teeth. But that won't apply to large sections of their audience.
Many people in Russia really do believe these things. They absolutely do see a world that doesn't exist.

 

[peterward]

At some point, at some stage in the future, probably after the war is over (if we ever reach that point), I would like to see a really well-considered, well judged attempt at explaining why Russians consistently see a world that doesn't exist, and which is the polar opposite to all the available evidence.

Propaganda

 

[peterward]

Yes, that's the maskirovka, which we are all familiar with.

But by the law of diminishing returns, I would argue that the more they do it now (when the whole world is aware of it), the less effective it is.
Yet they still appear unable or unwilling to change their strategy.

It isn't always to try and convince you the lie is true.

Sometimes they just put out so many competing BS narratives, you tune out or get dumbed down by it all.

 

[Eric the meek]

Propaganda

Which the rest of the world scoffs at.

Maybe the only audience that matters to the Russian political elite, is the Russian masses. Which may be their ultimate enemy.

 

[Eric the meek]

It isn't always to try and convince you the lie is true.

Sometimes they just put out so many competing BS narratives, you tune out or get dumbed down by it all.

Yes, I agree with that.

 

[Triggaaar]

Nazis in Ukraine? Repression of Russian speakers in Ukraine?

That is not how they see it, that is just what they claim. They know it's not true.

Yes, we know that the originators of this nonsense lie through their teeth. But that won't apply to large sections of their audience.
Many people in Russia really do believe these things. They absolutely do see a world that doesn't exist.

Ok - but your question was 'why Russians consistently see a world that doesn't exist'. Well the answer is simple - that's what they've been told, and the truth is hidden from them.

Imagine what world North Koreans see.

 

[Eric the meek]

Ok - but your question was 'why Russians consistently see a world that doesn't exist'. Well the answer is simple - that's what they've been told, and the truth is hidden from them.

Imagine what world North Koreans see.

Yes, OK, the answer to my question may be simple - they believe what they're told. Perhaps I was a little lazy in asking that question.

Given that, here is my next question.

Imagine a day in the future, whenever that may be, when peace is upon Ukraine. How does Ukraine/the west win the peace?
How do we change the hearts and minds of up to 140 million Russians, most of whom have never known democracy and freedom? How do you turn that around? Say if it is unfair question, as I think it is a very, very difficult one to crack.

This is what I meant all those years ago, when I said that winning the peace would not be easy.

 

[Triggaaar]

Imagine a day in the future, whenever that may be, when peace is upon Ukraine. How does Ukraine/the west win the peace?
How do we change the hearts and minds of up to 140 million Russians, most of whom have never known democracy and freedom? How do you turn that around? Say if it is unfair question, as I think it is a very, very difficult one to crack.

I feel like I've gone from a question at primary school reception, to facing a PhD question.

As you say, Russian's have never known freedom or democracy. They'd need a full revolution and a shit ton of luck. The world will settle for a lot less - a new f***ed up regime will do, as long as it's not waging war for now.

 

[Eric the meek]

I feel like I've gone from a question at primary school reception, to facing a PhD question.

As you say, Russian's have never known freedom or democracy. They'd need a full revolution and a shit ton of luck. The world will settle for a lot less - a new f***ed up regime will do, as long as it's not waging war for now.

I think my point is/was, that it probably isn't going to happen. So Russia has to lose big, and be at best contained, perhaps for decades. That raises its own questions and issues.

I feel our best chance is that the Russian economy collapses, and is therefore unable to fund another empire. We won't change the Russian mindset, not after a lifetime of indoctrination.

Sorry to put you on the spot.

 

[Triggaaar]

I think my point is/was, that it probably isn't going to happen. So Russia has to lose big, and be at best contained, perhaps for decades.

Agreed.

I feel our best chance is that the Russian economy collapses, and is therefore unable to fund another empire. We won't change the Russian mindset, not after a lifetime of indoctrination.

Agreed again.

Sorry to put you on the spot.

Not at all, I didn't have to answer, but we're all sharing opinions.

 

[papachris]

Yes, OK, the answer to my question may be simple - they believe what they're told. Perhaps I was a little lazy in asking that question.

Given that, here is my next question.

Imagine a day in the future, whenever that may be, when peace is upon Ukraine. How does Ukraine/the west win the peace?
How do we change the hearts and minds of up to 140 million Russians, most of whom have never known democracy and freedom? How do you turn that around? Say if it is unfair question, as I think it is a very, very difficult one to crack.

This is what I meant all those years ago, when I said that winning the peace would not be easy.

It's really difficult. It's been indoctrinated into Russians for many generations.
And because of that they are always different. I experience it every day in Estonia. Even people with Russian heritage that I know, not bad people, but they still have this mindset of superiority, mistrust of others etc. I really don't know how to or how long it takes to change that.

 

[TimWatt]

It's really difficult. It's been indoctrinated into Russians for many generations.
And because of that they are always different. I experience it every day in Estonia. Even people with Russian heritage that I know, not bad people, but they still have this mindset of superiority, mistrust of others etc. I really don't know how to or how long it takes to change that.

Such a feeling pretty much sums up our past, and with some people here still: the vestige conviction that the UK should/by rights/in the natural order of things be at the centre of its own Empire (or myth, take your pick). That's a minority view now, but was dominant 100 or so years ago (maybe 80). We can now at least separate our nation from its former Empire conceptually. But we still tend to invent new myths from time-to-time to help explain some sort of destiny if that helps feed our egos or sets up away to control others, like the 'EU project', 'Brexit', whatever.
It's hard to know what most Russian's actually feel in their hearts but maybe what externally looks like belief in a myth (here labelled non-reality) is, it seems there, self-protective justification for violence, rape, torture etc. Actually believing a myth (and plenty of Vodka) may make it sort of easier to live with oneself. In a miserable kind of way.
What's stupid is to believe in such things as inevitability (or destiny) for peoples - where actually (the reality) there's such a thing as choice. That might be frightening to face up to and even dangerous in such a regime.

 

[raymondo]

That describes what they do. It doesn't explain - why - they do it.

Why they do it, might be because it has worked in Russia for generations, where justice (for lying, committing crimes, making false accusations) can be avoided/bypassed by strong-arm tactics and/or corruption etc. They don't know any different.

But by invading Ukraine, they have showcased to the whole world, the darkness of Russia. A strategic mistake.

Government and oppression, by fear, has a shelf life.

Sadly, I think a lot of the world doesn't care. In fact, some of the world applauds or will copy it as a means to an 'end'.

 

[raymondo]

 

[Eric the meek]

This will help Russia.

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