[News] Nigel Farage and Reform

[nicko31]

Reform are gaining votes because we have an electorate who seem to think that all of their problems are down to immigrants, when really, it's not. It's down to Brexit, the gap between the rich and the poor getting wider and the press feeding the immigrant narrative so that the rich can stay richer and be seen to not be at fault.

They also seem to think that being green is 'woke' and people HATE woke, because yet again, the press and social media, have made it out to be the devil, some of which, I actually agree with because I do think the left have completely lost their heads and focused on the less important issues and there is an air of snobbery about them, but, this means that the important issues are being ignored.

Brexit is a massive part of this as well, because the country is poorer.

I really really hope that we see the benefits to Labours plans in 2 years, on most areas.

Just want a centre government who improves us, get's us closer to Europe for the economy, and takes the science seriously on climate change.

Of course Brexit changed UK immigration from young and transient to older and permanent with dependants. This was the Tory choice and with their path to power aided by Reform (or whatever they were called back then)

To be fair Milliband has us a good course to net-zero and provided Labour stay on it and last till at least 2029 its will be hard to reverse, cheap renewables will always beat legacy fossil fuels without tax breaks.

With the US trade situation sorted for now all roads are a European reset, without a stronger trading relations economic growth will be a difficult.

It will always be tough for Labour with most of the press pretty hostile to them whatever they do. They need to get better at cutting through the noise and calling us the spiffs. grifers and snake oil people

 

[jcdenton08]

I've often found not challenging idiocy has progressed the human race. Just think where we'd be without the square wheel.

Same with far right tropes really. Now auf Wiedersehen, mein freund, the poster saluting and goose step practicing won't finish itself and it's my turn to guard the gas chamber this afternoon.

Absolutely, challenge away. But there is a trope of the left and liberal mindset that “everybody I know thinks XYZ is stupid, so it won’t happen”. Conveniently forgetting that everybody they know shares similar viewpoints, and doesn’t account for millions who don’t.

It’s like how most Brits can’t get our head around Trump, yet tens of millions connected with him because what he says appeals to their lived experiences and world view.

Again, “everyone I knew” was convinced Corbyn would win a landslide, because he appealed to their world view. Forgetting or not caring about the tens of millions of people who felt the opposite.

It’s very easy to sit in a smug echo chamber and say “well *I* never voted for him” and alongside this comes “and anyone who did is stupid”. But it’s exactly this kind of arrogance which led to 16 years of Tories running the country into the ground because the Labour left were unwilling to be appealing to middle England.

There’s a reason “we’re listening” is such an overused cliche in politics when things are going wrong.

 

[beorhthelm]

As you well know, that is not what i am saying.

Dont be disingenuous.

You're better than that

it's exactly what you said! they chose to travel to a selected destination, at considerable cost. claiming asylum is based on the indivudual being persecuted for race, religion, politics, sexuality. one cant claim asylum on behalf of the family.

what is disingenuous is the contradictions and pretense. was bemused item recently about the problem with asylum seekers not speaking English, when often languge is cited as a reason to come here. it seems we dont or wont have honest discussion on the subject because its so loaded up with political preconceptions. i've long said there needs to be more positive case for immigrants, rather than apology for them or attack on those opposing immigrants. Starmer has gone in a different direction though.

 

[jcdenton08]

As a serious point @jcdenton08 I asked @bazbha ,who wanted to debate on the issues, some fairly simple questions about Reform's actual policy after they won the Greater Lincolnshire mayor and he ran away. It's almost like the only tactic they have is playing the victim.

Reform are a joke. Populist, unachievable pandering. Overall I agree something has to be done about mass immigration, but they are an amateur set up full of undesirables and no achievable policies.

My point is that people who are actually affected in their towns and cities by the negative aspects of mass immigration have been failed by the Tories, patronised by Labour and the Lib Dem’s are right out. They’ll vote Reform. Whether people like it or not.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I agree with several of yours. I don’t have any of my own, I think we’ve let the situation spiral and Brexit has done for us. I don’t think Reform are the answer, but I think millions do and we’ll see that in the next election.

I think the real issue is the financial backers behind Reform bombarding Mainstream media and Social media with constant anti-immigration rhetoric. This is taken in by lots of people who then keep repeating that same rhetoric and increase the effect further.

Some do it completely intentionally, a significant number I suspect sadly not

Immigration I have plenty of answers as to how to manage, because all of that information is easily accessible in the public domain. This not so much, short of a benign media mogul

 

[BBassic]

Reform are a joke. Populist, unachievable pandering. Overall I agree something has to be done about mass immigration, but they are an amateur set up full of undesirables and no achievable policies.

My point is that people who are actually affected in their towns and cities by the negative aspects of mass immigration have been failed by the Tories, patronised by Labour and the Lib Dem’s are right out. They’ll vote Reform. Whether people like it or not.

And the scary thing about them, taking the argument to its logical conclusion, is that if they do get in they'll potentially be in a position to enact some really harmful shit.

If they were to get in then at worst we'd have to hope it'd be a coalition of some sort but if they got the sort of majority Labour did we'd be well and truly f***ed.

And they likely still wouldn't solve the immigration equation.

 

[BadFish]

it's exactly what you said! they chose to travel to a selected destination, at considerable cost. claiming asylum is based on the indivudual being persecuted for race, religion, politics, sexuality. one cant claim asylum on behalf of the family.

what is disingenuous is the contradictions and pretense. was bemused item recently about the problem with asylum seekers not speaking English, when often languge is cited as a reason to come here. it seems we dont or wont have honest discussion on the subject because its so loaded up with political preconceptions. i've long said there needs to be more positive case for immigrants, rather than apology for them or attack on those opposing immigrants. Starmer has gone in a different direction though.

You've added an awful lot of information i didnt say in there.

Anyway, if my explanation was confusing for you, I provided links for clarity and you have access to google.

Stop being a twat.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Absolutely, challenge away. But there is a trope of the left and liberal mindset that “everybody I know thinks XYZ is stupid, so it won’t happen”. Conveniently forgetting that everybody they know shares similar viewpoints, and doesn’t account for millions who don’t.

It’s like how most Brits can’t get our head around Trump, yet tens of millions connected with him because what he says appeals to their lived experiences and world view.

Again, “everyone I knew” was convinced Corbyn would win a landslide, because he appealed to their world view. Forgetting or not caring about the tens of millions of people who felt the opposite.

It’s very easy to sit in a smug echo chamber and say “well *I* never voted for him” and alongside this comes “and anyone who did is stupid”. But it’s exactly this kind of arrogance which led to 16 years of Tories running the country into the ground because the Labour left were unwilling to be appealing to middle England.

There’s a reason “we’re listening” is such an overused cliche in politics when things are going wrong.

While that's true to an extent (I never thought Corbyn would win for a second but I have quite a few friends further to the left than me who were convinced he would) it's similarly true of the right.

You can see the same things over and over on this thread, quite often lifted directly from X which has just become a far right echo chamber:

'Illegal migrants'
'Why are they all young men'
'woke'
'dungaree tugger'
'libtard'
and lots of variations on the discredited Great Replacement Theory.

It's a symptom of a divided country. There's absolutely no guarantee that Reform will get in at the next election. The latest YouGov poll, for example, has Reform on 28%, Labour on 23%, Conservatives 18%, Lib Dem 16% and Green 9%. Add the progressive votes together and you get 48%, add the right of centre up and you get 46%. Brexit was 52/48 as we know. Labour won the last election with a broad but not a deep majority, picking off a lot of seats by not very much.

That is a simple result of binary politics that are the bread and butter of social media. There is no one side that needs to be or deserves to be listened to more than the other. Both are sticking their fingers in their ears and going la, la, la.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It's almost as if every explanation of the causes and how to address these are totally ignored from those who 'want to have a serious conversation'.

Want to reduce channel crossings ? (it's not illegal, you have to arrive in Britain to claim asylum).

Reinstate the ability to claim Asylum from abroad and let those granted asylum come into Britain, start work and contribute to Society.
Reopen legal Asylum routes to allow claimants
Work with Interpol again to target people traffickers
Re-employ more caseworkers to clear the backlog of applications (to be fair, this has finally started but could be increased).

Want to reduce overall migration ?

Rejoin the EU, invest more in the sectors that are held together by Immigrants like NHS, Care Homes, Hospitality, Logistics etc etc.

Want a figure for immigration ?

Put some work into understanding how Britain continues to support an ageing population with a reducing working population, the effect reducing migration would have on tax income, services and pensions, and you may have some idea of the impact of any figure you then choose.

Or alternately, just keep repeating Reform rhetoric from the Nigel Farage buzzword bible

Illegal, preferential treatment to natives, being allowed to walk on our streets with no real checks, commits a violent/sexual crime, 5* Hotel, taking over, etc etc etc

With you up to rejoining the EU.
I want it, plenty want it.
But for a significant number of electors . . . . .
It would be electoral suicide to promote it now.
Ironically we need a period of labour failing to fix a tanking economy for the EU to re-emerge as a thing.
But even then it is more likely the nation will lurch towards Nigel than grasp the Greens and Libs in an EU dash.

So, a hated Labour government, derided by the left for craven nationalism and cant.
Mocked by the right because that's what the right do.
A feeble Tory party led by hopelessly out of touch leadership.
And a liberal party, admired by the left and centre left for their naive unelectability.
Sorry, admired for their Principles and Vision.

I'm sticking with Starmer for now.
He is being made to run through a wasteland on a narrow path between nettles and brambles.
He's having to slash wildly at the undergrowth.
I'm not sure where he's headed and whether he's slashing wisely.
Perhaps we need to wait a bit.

 

[nicko31]

I think the real issue is the financial backers behind Reform bombarding Mainstream media and Social media with constant anti-immigration rhetoric. This is taken in by lots of people who then keep repeating that same rhetoric and increase the effect further.

Some do it completely intentionally, a significant number I suspect sadly not

Immigration I have plenty of answers as to how to manage, because all of that information is easily accessible in the public domain. This not so much, short of a benign media mogul

Lots of money not from the UK, people that don't live here or pay tax here. Sounds a lot like our press

Who funds Reform?

From the Brexit Party to today, Nigel Farage has received much of his funding from a handful of wealthy donors. Can Reform hold on to them—and become ...

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk

 

[bazbha]

As a serious point @jcdenton08 I asked @bazbha ,who wanted to debate on the issues, some fairly simple questions about Reform's actual policy after they won the Greater Lincolnshire mayor and he ran away. It's almost like the only tactic they have is playing the victim.

I didn't run away. I have little interest in spending half my life on these chat pages like some seem to do. I occasionally pop on & reply in exasperation at some of the ridiculous comments. As for your demand that I comment on Reform's policies please highlight where I said I vote Reform or believe in their policies. I believe I said that I can understand why so many people are looking for an alternative due to the state of the 2 main parties.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Use emojis when you use sarcasm as some of the contributors to Nsc will think you mean it.

I thought everyone knows I am a Trained Marxist

Anyway....

If I leave out emojis then Potty won't know whether to give me an ironic thumbs up or not.

 

[WATFORD zero]

With you up to rejoining the EU.
I want it, plenty want it.
But for a significant number of electors . . . . .
It would be electoral suicide to promote it now.
Ironically we need a period of labour failing to fix a tanking economy for the EU to re-emerge as a thing.
But even then it is more likely the nation will lurch towards Nigel than grasp the Greens and Libs in an EU dash.

So, a hated Labour government, derided by the left for craven nationalism and cant.
Mocked by the right because that's what the right do.
A feeble Tory party led by hopelessly out of touch leadership.
And a liberal party, admired by the left and centre left for their naive unelectability.
Sorry, admired for their Principles and Vision.

I'm sticking with Starmer for now.
He is being made to run through a wasteland on a narrow path between nettles and brambles.
He's having to slash wildly at the undergrowth.
I'm not sure where he's headed and whether he's slashing wisely.
Perhaps we need to wait a bit.

I was just pointing out the irony that the simplest and most obvious way (and was always the simplest and easiest way) to reduce immigration would be to be in the EU, the very thing Farage has been campaigning against for the last 20 years as the single best way to reduce immigration

Of course, Brexit has now been proven to have driven the biggest immigration growth in History, but maybe he has got it slightly less wrong this time

 

[nicko31]

With you up to rejoining the EU.
I want it, plenty want it.
But for a significant number of electors . . . . .
It would be electoral suicide to promote it now.
Ironically we need a period of labour failing to fix a tanking economy for the EU to re-emerge as a thing.
But even then it is more likely the nation will lurch towards Nigel than grasp the Greens and Libs in an EU dash.

So, a hated Labour government, derided by the left for craven nationalism and cant.
Mocked by the right because that's what the right do.
A feeble Tory party led by hopelessly out of touch leadership.
And a liberal party, admired by the left and centre left for their naive unelectability.
Sorry, admired for their Principles and Vision.

I'm sticking with Starmer for now.
He is being made to run through a wasteland on a narrow path between nettles and brambles.
He's having to slash wildly at the undergrowth.
I'm not sure where he's headed and whether he's slashing wisely.
Perhaps we need to wait a bit.

Every year support for rejoining getting greater and Brexiters are dying off. We will reach a point when we'll be back at 1975 levels of support, at that point it will be a political golden opportunity for someone with the guts to take it and call another referendum. I think will we will get there.

Without a 70/30 mandate Europe don't want to go there, we caused too much trouble. They wasted a lot of energy dealing with our domestic tantrum

 

[Lenny Rider]

Reform are a joke. Populist, unachievable pandering. Overall I agree something has to be done about mass immigration, but they are an amateur set up full of undesirables and no achievable policies.

My point is that people who are actually affected in their towns and cities by the negative aspects of mass immigration have been failed by the Tories, patronised by Labour and the Lib Dem’s are right out. They’ll vote Reform. Whether people like it or not.

For me, and its only really dawned on me in the last year, must be an age thing , Brexit* effectively f***ed this country (I voted stay for the record), its also f***ed the lovely part of Southern Spain I have a property in, one of the principal architects of Brexit is now the man many want or think will be PM in 2029.

Whatever happened to the great British phrase, "Once bitten, twice shy"?

*Covid didn't help.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I didn't run away. I have little interest in spending half my life on these chat pages like some seem to do. I occasionally pop on & reply in exasperation at some of the ridiculous comments. As for your demand that I comment on Reform's policies please highlight where I said I vote Reform or believe in their policies. I believe I said that I can understand why so many people are looking for an alternative due to the state of the 2 main parties.

You said:

I have to congratulate all who have excelled themselves this morning. The response to last night has been exceptional. Its like a greatest hits of cliches which I've thoroughly enjoyed.
1. Its like the start of Nazi Germany in the 30's
2. Its because of the "right wing media" (apart from the Daily Mail & Express which hardly anyone reads theses days I'm not sure who that is)
3. Those Reform voters are thick / brainwashed (or any of several sneering insults that suggest inferior intellect to those on the left)
4. Brexit is the cause of everything negative to the economy (while totally ignoring the COVID lockdown & the Ukraine war & the state of other European economies)
5. Liberal use of the word racist
Maybe just maybe the fact that Labour have proved to be even worse than the last shower might have something to do with why people have voted Reform? Throwing insults at everyone you disagree with isn't a good look. Try debating without the condescending attitude perhaps?

Both myself and @Berty23 did so and you didn't answer either post.

And as for 'occasionally pop on and reply' you mean 'exclusively post on political threads about Labour, Reform and Identity Politics'. Do you even support Brighton?

 

[Barnet Seagull]

I can absolutely see why people will vote for reform and I expect them to do well at the next election. Politics has lost touch with the vast majority of the people in this country and what they see, feel and experience on a daily basis isn't getting fixed and isn't getting better. Many have already forgotten about brexit - and to many, it was an irrelevance to their day to day life anyway.

What they want is someone to improve their lives.
This means addressing inequality and improving public services. Labour aren't doing it, the Conservatives will never do it, Reform are at least offering a (very lightweight but sounding good) alternative. The greens and lib dems are unfortunately an irrelevance as the media has pushed a narrative of leftie do-gooders that although reasonably able to help fix the issues, just isn't relatable enough.

Unless something significant changes, and fast, Reform may be the least worst option for many.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Unless something significant changes, and fast, Reform may be the least worst option for many.

Farage will always be the worst option for the huge majority of the UK and certainly the majority of Reform voters, but if they haven't realised it from the last time they believed his idea for reducing immigration and got the highest ever growth in UK immigration history, there is every chance they won't this

What's that Nige ? We need a serious discussion about Immigration ? We do now because of you, you ****

 

[nicko31]

For me, and its only really dawned on me in the last year, must be an age thing , Brexit* effectively f***ed this country (I voted stay for the record), its also f***ed the lovely part of Southern Spain I have a property in, one of the principal architects of Brexit is now the man many want or think will be PM in 2029.

Whatever happened to the great British phrase, "Once bitten, twice shy"?

*Covid didn't help.

Reform are nothing new and offer nothing new and aren't some revelation. They've been around for 2 decades but make no mistake they are targeting the young and doing it quite effectively via the likes of Tik-Tok.

Need people to call the f**ker out

 

[Simster]

I can absolutely see why people will vote for reform and I expect them to do well at the next election. Politics has lost touch with the vast majority of the people in this country and what they see, feel and experience on a daily basis isn't getting fixed and isn't getting better. Many have already forgotten about brexit - and to many, it was an irrelevance to their day to day life anyway.

What they want is someone to improve their lives.
This means addressing inequality and improving public services. Labour aren't doing it, the Conservatives will never do it, Reform are at least offering a (very lightweight but sounding good) alternative. The greens and lib dems are unfortunately an irrelevance as the media has pushed a narrative of leftie do-gooders that although reasonably able to help fix the issues, just isn't relatable enough.

Unless something significant changes, and fast, Reform may be the least worst option for many.

People will vote Reform because, put bluntly, nothing changes with the other two (or so they'll have you believe) and they are the new kid on the block and deliberately targeting the working class vote.

Unfortunately, they offer nothing - and we'll all suffer the consequences until this is called out. To be clear, their contribution has been so far to hound the Tories into a disastrous Brexit that is costing billions. One of their stupid flagship policies this time round is to "cut public waste" to the tune of £50 billion. This should be a red flag to absolutely anyone considering voting for them.