[News] Nigel Farage and Reform

[Weststander]

Consecutive governments (and basically all of us) have had our head in the sand regarding the ageing population. The majority of carers in the UK aren't immigrants but there simply aren't enough. 6 million are family members of friends who are performing the role unpaid.

This of course has an effect on the number of the elderly taking up beds in the NHS.

We are culturally very bad at looking after the elderly, hoping the state will step in. The state clearly doesn't consider care as a skilled profession, doesn't pay enough and therefore has to cast it's net wide to get enough staff.

That's really the elephant in the room. There needs to be a proper conversation where the burden is shared between family and state.

If we want lower migration in the care sector, we're going to have to pay for it.

Which is why snake oil salesman like Farage are just snake oil salesman.

The 10m population increase (the bulk of it from immigration and later offspring) with next to no infrastructure to match, wasn’t required for the NHS and care sectors.

Very true what you say. A northern European thing.

 

[DJ NOBO]

The ideology being, we'd like our planet to be habitable?

Well I am in, down with that sort of woke nonsense

The question with net zero isn’t “do you want to destroy the planet?” Because everyone would reply “no”.
It is “how much are you willing to pay out of your pocket for net zero given that other countries are doing nearly all the damage and the UK environmental record is relatively good anyway?”.
BTW I am not saying I am anti net zero, just pointing out it is not as simple as your post suggests.

 

[nevergoagain]

It'd be nice to think that one day Britain might actually grow up enough to have a conversation about immigration which doesn't just end up boiling down to "so how much do you hate it?"

Alas I suspect we'll never be allowed to reach that stage as there's too much money to be made by the establishment over painting immigration as a 100% negative and something which must be forever cut more and more. Still, at least if people are furious about the immigrants then they won't turn on the people who are actually making everyone's lives shite.

This indeed is the conversation that needs to be had. Of course there are plenty of racists in reform, the tories and likely all the other parties if you really looked into it. I absolutely genuinely believe though that the vast majority of those who are tagged as being far right, anti-immigration, thick etc are not racist but have a genuine concern about immigration and the impact. It really needs to be split into the legal/illegal categories to have a balanced discussion.

Illegal - I think the majority are very concerned that undocumented arrivals are perceived to be given preferential treatment to natives, whether that is entirely true or not is another discussion. My biggest fear is that we have no idea who these people are and I have huge concerns about them being allowed to walk on our streets with no real checks on who they actually are and each time one of these commits a violent/sexual crime it's one that could have been avoided. To say they should be detained though as has been said on here brings references to concentration camps. I still don't understand why these boat arrivals seem to be mainly young men and why they are risking life and limb on a dinghy to get here when they were "safe" in France, let alone where they got the money to pay for the expensive boat ride.

Legal - A much more complicated discussion but again I think that vast majority or those considering voting reform (mainly as no one else is there for them now the tories have imploded) would agree that immigration in general is fine and needed. We absolutely need people in to perform roles that need to be done but it can't be in the numbers that have been seen and projected. 6.6m population increase fuelled by 6.1m of these being migrants is just insane. We can't house everyone we have now let alone provide adequate services for them. There's also a big argument that a lot of these roles could be performed by UK citizens but it's far too easy to not work for some.

Social media is at the centre of this to a large degree and the algorithms just feed it (on both sides), people screaming for mass deportations are just deluded and not actually appreciating that most of the grooming gangs etc. are as "British" as you and I so cannot be deported but that doesn't mean there aren't issues associated to those groups that need properly addressing without fear or favour. The justice system is also a huge problem when you see just how many people immigrant or otherwise walk free having committed crimes that the vast majority would find abhorrent. I don't see though why there is this 1 year sentence that triggers deportation, if you are a guest in this country then you have a duty to behave in the manner we expect and to follow our rules if not then you should forfeit your right to be here, I would go as far as including anything recorded as a criminal offence (not cautions etc.)

 

[BadFish]

This indeed is the conversation that needs to be had. Of course there are plenty of racists in reform, the tories and likely all the other parties if you really looked into it. I absolutely genuinely believe though that the vast majority of those who are tagged as being far right, anti-immigration, thick etc are not racist but have a genuine concern about immigration and the impact. It really needs to be split into the legal/illegal categories to have a balanced discussion.

Illegal - I think the majority are very concerned that undocumented arrivals are perceived to be given preferential treatment to natives, whether that is entirely true or not is another discussion. My biggest fear is that we have no idea who these people are and I have huge concerns about them being allowed to walk on our streets with no real checks on who they actually are and each time one of these commits a violent/sexual crime it's one that could have been avoided. To say they should be detained though as has been said on here brings references to concentration camps. I still don't understand why these boat arrivals seem to be mainly young men and why they are risking life and limb on a dinghy to get here when they were "safe" in France, let alone where they got the money to pay for the expensive boat ride.

Legal - A much more complicated discussion but again I think that vast majority or those considering voting reform (mainly as no one else is there for them now the tories have imploded) would agree that immigration in general is fine and needed. We absolutely need people in to perform roles that need to be done but it can't be in the numbers that have been seen and projected. 6.6m population increase fuelled by 6.1m of these being migrants is just insane. We can't house everyone we have now let alone provide adequate services for them. There's also a big argument that a lot of these roles could be performed by UK citizens but it's far too easy to not work for some.

Social media is at the centre of this to a large degree and the algorithms just feed it (on both sides), people screaming for mass deportations are just deluded and not actually appreciating that most of the grooming gangs etc. are as "British" as you and I so cannot be deported but that doesn't mean there aren't issues associated to those groups that need properly addressing without fear or favour. The justice system is also a huge problem when you see just how many people immigrant or otherwise walk free having committed crimes that the vast majority would find abhorrent. I don't see though why there is this 1 year sentence that triggers deportation, if you are a guest in this country then you have a duty to behave in the manner we expect and to follow our rules if not then you should forfeit your right to be here, I would go as far as including anything recorded as a criminal offence (not cautions etc.)

If you do a little research on this you can easily find out. It's not complicated

Post explaining it is underneath, sorry quoted instead of edited.

 

[BadFish]

If you do a little research on this you can easily find out. It's not complicated.

So it id usually young men because the journey is long, dangerous and expensive. most often families can only offord to send one person. They then hope that whoever they will be able to get the rest of the family to a safe place they find.

so families have to choose someobe to go. They picl the family member most capable of making the journey. Most often this is young men.

5 Reasons Why the Majority of Refugees Reaching Europe are Men

Here are five reasons and explanations of why the majority of Syrian refugees who reach Europe are men. The danger of the trip is just part of the reason.

www.globalcitizen.org

Most asylum seekers claim asylum in other countries, only a small % go to the UK. This is usually because they have some kind of connection with the place, usually family, friends etc, but it can also be because they speak the language or feel some other kind of connection to the place.

Reasons people are crossing the Channel | British Red Cross

Learn more about why people risk their lives crossing the English Channel in the hopes of finding safety in the UK.

www.redcross.org.uk

 

[beorhthelm]

So it id usually young men because the journey is long, dangerous and expensive. most often families can only offord to send one person. They then hope that whoever they will be able to get the rest of the family to a safe place they find.

so families have to choose someobe to go. They picl the family member most capable of making the journey. Most often this is young men.

Most asylum seekers claim asylum in other countries, only a small % go to the UK. This is usually because they have some kind of connection with the place, usually family, friends etc, but it can also be because they speak the language or feel some other kind of connection to the place.

you're saying they're economic migrants, and not really asylum seekers. i dont think that's the correct message, though you're probably correct.

what with the change of message from Starmer, feels like the debate is shifting substantially.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

So it id usually young men because the journey is long, dangerous and expensive. most often families can only offord to send one person. They then hope that whoever they will be able to get the rest of the family to a safe place they find.

so families have to choose someobe to go. They picl the family member most capable of making the journey. Most often this is young men.

Most asylum seekers claim asylum in other countries, only a small % go to the UK. This is usually because they have some kind of connection with the place, usually family, friends etc, but it can also be because they speak the language or feel some other kind of connection to the place.

I'm not having that.
Most asylum seekers want to come to the UK.
This is because they know we are a soft touch and will give them all a council house.
All because of the Labour party and the EU.

 

[WATFORD zero]

If you do a little research on this you can easily find out. It's not complicated.

It's almost as if every explanation of the causes and how to address these are totally ignored from those who 'want to have a serious conversation'.

Want to reduce channel crossings ? (it's not illegal, you have to arrive in Britain to claim asylum).

Reinstate the ability to claim Asylum from abroad and let those granted asylum come into Britain, start work and contribute to Society.
Reopen legal Asylum routes to allow claimants
Work with Interpol again to target people traffickers
Re-employ more caseworkers to clear the backlog of applications (to be fair, this has finally started but could be increased).

Want to reduce overall migration ?

Rejoin the EU, invest more in the sectors that are held together by Immigrants like NHS, Care Homes, Hospitality, Logistics etc etc.

Want a figure for immigration ?

Put some work into understanding how Britain continues to support an ageing population with a reducing working population, the effect reducing migration would have on tax income, services and pensions, and you may have some idea of the impact of any figure you then choose.

Or alternately, just keep repeating Reform rhetoric from the Nigel Farage buzzword bible

Illegal, preferential treatment to natives, being allowed to walk on our streets with no real checks, commits a violent/sexual crime, 5* Hotel, taking over, etc etc etc

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I'm not having that.
Most asylum seekers want to come to the UK.
This is because they know we are a soft touch and will give them all a council house.
All because of the Labour party and the EU.

Use emojis when you use sarcasm as some of the contributors to Nsc will think you mean it.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

It's almost as if every explanation of the causes and how to address these are totally ignored from those who 'want to have a serious conversation'.

Want to reduce channel crossings ? (it's not illegal, you have to arrive in Britain to claim asylum).

Reinstate the ability to claim Asylum from abroad and let those granted asylum come into Britain, start work and contribute to Society.
Reopen legal Asylum routes to allow claimants
Work with Interpol again to target people traffickers
Re-employ more caseworkers to clear the backlog of applications (to be fair, this has finally started but could be increased).

Want to reduce overall migration ?

Rejoin the EU, invest more in the sectors that are held together by Immigrants like NHS, Care Homes, Hospitality and logistics.

Want a figure for immigration ?

Put some work into understanding how Britain continues to support an ageing population with a reducing working population, the effect reducing migration would have on tax income and services, and you may have some idea.

Or just keep repeating Reform rhetoric from the Nigel Farage buzzword bible

Not forgetting France and Germany already take in a much higher percentage per capita than Britain.

 

[BadFish]

you're saying they're economic migrants, and not really asylum seekers. i dont think that's the correct message, though you're probably correct.

what with the change of message from Starmer, feels like the debate is shifting substantially.

As you well know, that is not what i am saying.

Dont be disingenuous.

You're better than that

 

[BadFish]

I'm not having that.
Most asylum seekers want to come to the UK.
This is because they know we are a soft touch and will give them all a council house.
All because of the Labour party and the EU.

Why do they need a council house? They live in 5 star luxury hotels.

 

[BadFish]

It's almost as if every explanation of the causes and how to address these are totally ignored from those who 'want to have a serious conversation'.

Want to reduce channel crossings ? (it's not illegal, you have to arrive in Britain to claim asylum).

Reinstate the ability to claim Asylum from abroad and let those granted asylum come into Britain, start work and contribute to Society.
Reopen legal Asylum routes to allow claimants
Work with Interpol again to target people traffickers
Re-employ more caseworkers to clear the backlog of applications (to be fair, this has finally started but could be increased).

Want to reduce overall migration ?

Rejoin the EU, invest more in the sectors that are held together by Immigrants like NHS, Care Homes, Hospitality, Logistics etc etc.

Want a figure for immigration ?

Put some work into understanding how Britain continues to support an ageing population with a reducing working population, the effect reducing migration would have on tax income and services, and you may have some idea of the impact of any figure you then choose.

Or alternately, just keep repeating Reform rhetoric from the Nigel Farage buzzword bible

Illegal,preferential treatment to natives, being allowed to walk on our streets with no real checks, commits a violent/sexual crime, etc etc etc

. . . and pretend you are talking on behalf of other people so you can sidestep awkard questions.

it makes sensible debate very tricky.

 

[darkwolf666]

A quite extraordinary statement by itself. Cutting office jobs and negotiating better value (i.e. cheaper) procurement will not grow the economy, because fewer people will be paying less for items that the seller has to cut costs to sell for less. It's a race to the bottom.

I read that too, and thought I was being thick. I'm glad I'm not, or I might vote Reform...!

 

[jcdenton08]

Yes, it’s all fun and games until Reform do really well in the next election because of the very things people are mocking.

Then we can all (all six of us) sit here in a liberal circle-jerk and have a good laugh at those ignorant fools while Reform form a coalition by gaining millions of votes from people who are actually affected the issues Reform are campaigning on.

 

[BadFish]

Yes, it’s all fun and games until Reform do really well in the next election because of the very things people are mocking.

Then we can all (all six of us) sit here in a liberal circle-jerk and have a good laugh at those ignorant fools while Reform form a coalition by gaining millions of votes from people who are actually affected the issues Reform are campaigning on.

Do we avoid this but agreeing that Reform are a viable option and its a great idea to vote for them?

 

[WATFORD zero]

Yes, it’s all fun and games until Reform do really well in the next election because of the very things people are mocking.

Then we can all (all six of us) sit here in a liberal circle-jerk and have a good laugh at those ignorant fools while Reform form a coalition by gaining millions of votes from people who are actually affected the issues Reform are campaigning on.

Well I've given my solutions for reducing and managing immigration here (8 posts up). What are yours ?

 

[jcdenton08]

Well I've given my solutions for reducing and managing immigration here (8 posts up). What are yours ?

I agree with several of yours. I don’t have any of my own, I think we’ve let the situation spiral and Brexit has done for us. I don’t think Reform are the answer, but I think millions do and we’ll see that in the next election.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Yes, it’s all fun and games until Reform do really well in the next election because of the very things people are mocking.

Then we can all (all six of us) sit here in a liberal circle-jerk and have a good laugh at those ignorant fools while Reform form a coalition by gaining millions of votes from people who are actually affected the issues Reform are campaigning on.

I've often found not challenging idiocy has progressed the human race. Just think where we'd be without the square wheel.

Same with far right tropes really. Now auf Wiedersehen, mein freund, the poster saluting and goose step practicing won't finish itself and it's my turn to guard the gas chamber this afternoon.

 

[Guinness Boy]

As a serious point @jcdenton08 I asked @bazbha ,who wanted to debate on the issues, some fairly simple questions about Reform's actual policy after they won the Greater Lincolnshire mayor and he ran away. It's almost like the only tactic they have is playing the victim.