[News] Nigel Farage and Reform

[dsr-burnley]

There’s some detail on this here.

Civil service staff numbers | Institute for Government

Who exactly are civil servants and how many are there?

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk

Note that 2016 numbers were the lowest since the war.

Brexit and COVID are cited as the main reasons for the increase.

1) Brexit might be “done” but its effects are not. We are now outside the EU, which means we need people for things like alignment on standards or negotiating trade deals where previously we did not
2) Covid exposed a nation totally unprepared for a major health incident. At the very least, some increase in required civil servants can be justified to avoid a repeat

More people does not necessarily mean all of that is waste. Britain’s circumstances now compared with 2016 are totally different.

There’s nothing wrong with cutting waste, but Reform’s policy simply says that every department will have to save £5 from every £100 spent. That’s not cutting waste, that’s just cutting spending. There’s no detail on how they will identify waste or how much they are willing to spend in identifying it - it reads like a simplistic promise to spend less money for the sake of it.

Austerity by another name.

The EU in 2015 had a total of 46,000 civil servants. We don't need 3 new ones to replace the work done by each one of them, especially bearing in mind that they were doing the work for 28 countries, not just one.

As for covid, if there are tens of thousands of civil servants employed to deal with the current covid crisis, then surely there is an easy saving to be made?

(Numbers employed by quangos are up as well. More savings to be made there.)

 

[Simster]

Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever. I'm happy to evangelise if you are.

But instead of evangelising or blaspheming, whichever you prefer, why not answer the question? This thread is full of people explaining that (a) Reform voters are thick, and (b) Reform voters won't answer questions about their policies. So go on, presume I'm thick, and explain why your policy of not cutting public waste is the right one.

If someone other than you asks, then I will. As it's just you - an embarrassing Reform fanboy - I can't be bothered.

You made the point yesterday that public sector workers when from 400k to 300k but since 2016 has gone up to 500k. You were told the obvious reason for this and chose to ignore this. Now I'm ignoring you.

 

[SouthSaxon]

The EU in 2015 had a total of 46,000 civil servants. We don't need 3 new ones to replace the work done by each one of them, especially bearing in mind that they were doing the work for 28 countries, not just one.

So what were those 46,000 doing in 2015? I genuinely don’t know. Using that logic, did Britain not need any civil servants in 2015?

My point is not that Britain had to recreate the EU civil service, it’s that leaving the EU introduced more red tape. We were promised less by the likes of Fromage, but that was a lie.

As for covid, if there are tens of thousands of civil servants employed to deal with the current covid crisis, then surely there is an easy saving to be made?

That really depends on the detail, which we don’t have and, I dare say, neither does Reform.

Just because COVID triggered the increase, doesn’t mean all those people worked on it directly.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I can absolutely see why people will vote for reform and I expect them to do well at the next election. Politics has lost touch with the vast majority of the people in this country and what they see, feel and experience on a daily basis isn't getting fixed and isn't getting better. Many have already forgotten about brexit - and to many, it was an irrelevance to their day to day life anyway.

What they want is someone to improve their lives.
This means addressing inequality and improving public services. Labour aren't doing it, the Conservatives will never do it, Reform are at least offering a (very lightweight but sounding good) alternative. The greens and lib dems are unfortunately an irrelevance as the media has pushed a narrative of leftie do-gooders that although reasonably able to help fix the issues, just isn't relatable enough.

Unless something significant changes, and fast, Reform may be the least worst option for many.

Least worst? You know the P&O workers who turned up for work to be told, they'd all lost their jobs? The next day, P&O rehired workers on half their wages.
Fire and rehire. The Employment Bill going through Parliament is meant to end that.
All the Reform MPs voted against the Employment Bill. It is on record that they don't like workers' rights.

 

[NigelTaylor82]

Why is it that folks that are very left wing & think the Guardian is a credible news source suddenly turn quite nasty when challenged on their views. Yet people that are more centre or right wing ( not extreme right) don’t !

 

[Simster]

Why is it that folks that are very left wing & think the Guardian is a credible news source suddenly turn quite nasty when challenged on their views. Yet people that are more centre or right wing ( not extreme right) don’t !

Because you're talking crap?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Why is it that folks that are very left wing & think the Guardian is a credible news source suddenly turn quite nasty when challenged on their views. Yet people that are more centre or right wing ( not extreme right) don’t !

Are there very left wing posters in this thread? I don't see any posts that are very left wing.

Do you think the Daily Mail or Express are credible news sources?

 

[SouthSaxon]

(Numbers employed by quangos are up as well. More savings to be made there.)

Presumably you support Labour’s plans on that?

Bonfire of the quangos? Keir Starmer pledges shake-up of regulators - BBC News

The PM will pledge to slash the costs of regulation with an "active government" in a speech later.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[SouthSaxon]

Are there very left wing posters in this thread? I don't see any posts that are very left wing.

Do you think the Daily Mail or Express are credible news sources?

I think the Guardian is a credible news source but I don’t think it’s very left wing.

 

[NigelTaylor82]

Are there very left wing posters in this thread? I don't any posts that are very left wing.

Do you think the Daily Mail or Express are credible news sources?

The daily mail & Guardian both have journalists where some are at the extreme end of the political spectrum. The Times is the most sensible serious newspaper.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

As a serious point @jcdenton08 I asked @bazbha ,who wanted to debate on the issues, some fairly simple questions about Reform's actual policy after they won the Greater Lincolnshire mayor and he ran away. It's almost like the only tactic they have is playing the victim.

As did NigelTaylor within 10 minutes of me challenging his post.

Whatever happened to @TwoProfessors?

 

[pb21]

What are the extra 120,000 civil servants appointed since 2016, actually doing?

I don't know, you tell me.

You're the one who, it sounds like, wants to make these people redundant because they're wasteful, presumably you do know what they do?

I may agree with you if you could tell me...

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I think the media are the problem. Many people see headlines but don't read the content or the context.

The BBC, are a lot to blame, for platforming Nigel Farage so regularly. Boris Johnson put his own man in charge.

LibDem and Green MPs are very rarely asked to appear on programmes whether that be Question Time nor Current Affairs.

 

[Weststander]

I think the media are the problem. Many people see headlines but don't read the content or the context.

The BBC, are a lot to blame, for platforming Nigel Farage so regularly. Boris Johnson put his own man in charge.

LibDem and Green MPs are very rarely asked to appear on programmes whether that be Question Time nor Current Affairs.

Sky News, ITV too ... Farage and Tice get extensive coverage and some.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Sky News, ITV too ... Farage and Tice get extensive coverage and some.

Money talks.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I don't know, you tell me.

You're the one who, it sounds like, wants to make these people redundant because they're wasteful, presumably you do know what they do?

I may agree with you if you could tell me...

Well, exactly.

In his head they're all working from home on huge salaries on Net Zero, DEI projects, HR and duplicate middle management roles.

In reality they may well be dealing with the additional internal red tape caused by Brexit, they may be police officers, prison officers or nurses or they may be planning so that next time there's a pandemic we don't completely stitch up our police officers, prison officers and nurses.

It's the typical failure to understand the downstream consequences of populism.

"We must leave the EU". Well, in that case you'll need to write equivalent laws and processes here.
"We must bang up these illegals / career criminals". Well, in that case you need more prisons which will need planning, building and staffing.
"We must stop this shoplifting epidemic". So you'll need to redraft some legislation and hire more coppers then.

 

[Chicken Run]

I think the media are the problem. Many people see headlines but don't read the content or the context.

The BBC, are a lot to blame, for platforming Nigel Farage so regularly. Boris Johnson put his own man in charge.

LibDem and Green MPs are very rarely asked to appear on programmes whether that be Question Time nor Current Affairs.

With respect that’s not the media’s fault, how does the saying go “Give the people what they want”

Even on here if you had a poll of watching a 10 minute interview with Nigel Charade making a complete tit of himself talking bollox or 10 minutes of Lucas talking about the perils of fracking who do you think the majority will watch, even those that loathe Charade will watch him.

Unfortunately TB you live amongst a population that in majority couldn’t give two hoots about important issues such as the climate and fairer politics.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Well, exactly.

In his head they're all working from home on huge salaries on Net Zero, DEI projects, HR and duplicate middle management roles.

In reality they may well be dealing with the additional internal red tape caused by Brexit, they may be police officers, prison officers or nurses or they may be planning so that next time there's a pandemic we don't completely stitch up our police officers, prison officers and nurses.

It's the typical failure to understand the downstream consequences of populism.

"We must leave the EU". Well, in that case you'll need to write equivalent laws and processes here.
"We must bang up these illegals / career criminals". Well, in that case you need more prisons which will need planning, building and staffing.
"We must stop this shoplifting epidemic". So you'll need to redraft some legislation and hire more coppers then.

Well, if the extra civil servants are nurses and police officers and prison officers, then we can simply put them back into the hospitals or police stations and prisons and cut the civil service while simultaneously adding staff to those forces and services.

Do you honestly believe that the government employs only half a million people? The civil service is basically the admin staff, administering all those people like nurses and police officers and prison officers. Nurses and police officers and prison officers are not civil servants.

If you do want to lock up career criminals and cut down on shoplifting - and I suspect a lot of people do - then yes, blame the politicians who have not built prisons and have not hired enough police. But to turn it round to suggest that Reform are the bad guys for having those ambitions - that's taking partisanship too far, surely. Cutting crime has to be an ambition for all parties.

 

[nicko31]

I think the media are the problem. Many people see headlines but don't read the content or the context.

The BBC, are a lot to blame, for platforming Nigel Farage so regularly. Boris Johnson put his own man in charge.

LibDem and Green MPs are very rarely asked to appear on programmes whether that be Question Time nor Current Affairs.

Farage was platformed for years on QT, whereas anything that actually did their job in European parliament got no coverage at all, still amazes me it was only 52/48

Today the LD's have 15 times the number of MP's that Reform have, but get about 1/15 of the coverage.

And of course he loves the Beeb. Farage is only relevant because the media is obsessed with celebrity.

 

[carlzeiss]

Today the LD's have 15 times the number of MP's that Reform have, but get about 1/15 of the coverage.

But less votes in 2024 , LD 3,519,214 V RF 4,117,610