[News] 15 yr school girl stabbed to death Croydon

[Live by the sea]

You think that it is OK for police to be racists when going about stop and search?

You glib nonsense is quite breathtaking.

I don’t no and I never said that . What I did say is murder trumps racism .

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I do not think throwing any one in the sea or rounding anyone up is the best way forward . I’ve never believed that.

I simply think that careful targeting based on stats is the best way forward .

I have not mentioned colour and I don’t agree that it is entirely a specific community issue . It is from what I’ve read largely a gang issue made up of black , Asian & white .

Just to be clear I’m not in any way saying stop every black teenager that walks around the streets of London or every white teenager that walks around the streets of Glasgow or every Asian teenager that walks around the streets of Birmingham . It’s far more nuanced than that . It’s about the dress , the vibe , the language etc etc .

Once you meet a few gang members and speak to them , it’s far easier to spot other ones . And yes I have albeit in NYC , I accidentally strayed into the wrong area .

I apologise obviously not all Guardian readers think the way I said but certainly the tone of much of the guardian editorial seems to be blaming everyone else rather than the people carrying the knives and that I find wrong .

Thank you for your very civil reply in the face of my ire. That is greatly appreciated. I will go back and edit my rantings.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I apologise obviously not all Guardian readers think the way I said but certainly the tone of much of the guardian editorial seems to be blaming everyone else rather than the people carrying the knives and that I find wrong .

The Editor of The Guardian is Katherine Viner and she rarely, if ever, writes opinion, being too busy editing. It does have an Opinion section, formerly known as Comment Is Free which is contributed to by a range of writers from the far left (Owen Jones) to the centre right.

Here is a screen shot of today's top pieces. There isn't one on the stabbing or knife crime.

Which editorial is it you are referring to? Could you provide a link and perhaps an in context quote to support what you are saying?

 

[Live by the sea]

I can’t find every example I’ve read over the last few years , but here is one I quickly found . Not as strident as some of the other ones I’ve read but again it talks about stop and search not being the answer.

As I’ve said previously, it definitely was the answer in NYC in the 1980’s

From the Guardian

New figures from the Office for National Statistics showing a record number of knife offences committed in England and Wales in the 12 months ending in March this year are a distressing indicator of the levels of extreme violence and threat to which some people, and particularly young people in poorer urban areas, are exposed. There were 46,265 offences, 34% of them in London, with a 28% increase on the previous year in the number of fatal stabbings. While many forms of crime fell during lockdown, following an overall fall of 9% in offending over the past year, police and others have voiced fears that violence could rise sharplyas the rules ease, drug-dealing gangs attempt to reassert themselves and the financial outlook for millions of people dramatically worsens.

Last week’s killing of a teenager, Ahmed Yasin-Ali, in a west London street was a bleak reminder of the disproportionate toll that knife crime takes on young people. Data from the NHSon hospital admissions showed an 8% increase in knife injuries last year, with doctors saying the victims were getting younger and the injuries more severe. While the latest jump in stabbings is disturbing, the trend is not new: knife offences have been rising since the middle of the decade, having fallen for several years before that (an earlier high point was reached in 2006/07, although comparable crime survey data was not then collected by the ONS).

There is no single or simple answer to the question of why this disturbing increase in violence, which traumatises families and communities as well as cutting victims’ lives short, has taken place. The market for illegal drugs is part of the story, with violence used by criminal gangs to enforce discipline and settle scores. Waltham Forest council commissioned research which argued such organisations had become more professional, with a focus on profit replacing postcode rivalries. The phenomenon of children being exploited by “county lines” suppliers with customers in rural or seaside areas is now widely recognised. But more research into connections between the drugs trade and violent crime, particularly that involving children and young adults, is needed and should be prioritised.

The complexity of the issues is no excuse for inaction, however. A body of evidence, originating from a pioneering project in Chicago and later tested in Glasgow, proves that a public-health approach can drastically reduce violence of this nature. This involves recognising social determinants and risk factors including adverse early experiences and domestic violence, and making strategic interventions at various stages. Intelligent and robust policing is crucial, but so are the prevention techniques of mental health practitioners, educators, social workers and youth workers, who are skilled at working with young men.
What has never been, and will never be, effective is the indiscriminate use of stop and search. The former prime minister Theresa May understood this. In recent years senior police officers as well as politicians have spoken thoughtfully about the need to acknowledge links between crime and disadvantage. An action plan from the mayor of London’s violence reduction unit is expected shortly. So it was utterly depressing to watch the current home secretary, Priti Patel, and Boris Johnson appear to revel in turning back the clock, and encourage an increase in the use of stop and search in the midst of anti-racism protests.
Young people deserve better than this. So do we all. As we head into a period of acute economic difficulty, with all the suffering that entails, it should be remembered that high levels of violence in a society correspond closely to extreme inequality.

 

[Live by the sea]

The last line isn’t one I agree with either . I’ve been to other countries like India & various Islands in the Caribbean etc where there is extreme inequality but teenagers don’t go around knifing each other .

 

[Guinness Boy]

I can’t find every example I’ve read over the last few years , but here is one I quickly found . Not as strident as some of the other ones I’ve read but again it talks about stop and search not being the answer.

As I’ve said previously, it definitely was the answer in NYC in the 1980’s

From the Guardian

New figures from the Office for National Statistics showing a record number of knife offences committed in England and Wales in the 12 months ending in March this year are a distressing indicator of the levels of extreme violence and threat to which some people, and particularly young people in poorer urban areas, are exposed. There were 46,265 offences, 34% of them in London, with a 28% increase on the previous year in the number of fatal stabbings. While many forms of crime fell during lockdown, following an overall fall of 9% in offending over the past year, police and others have voiced fears that violence could rise sharplyas the rules ease, drug-dealing gangs attempt to reassert themselves and the financial outlook for millions of people dramatically worsens.

Last week’s killing of a teenager, Ahmed Yasin-Ali, in a west London street was a bleak reminder of the disproportionate toll that knife crime takes on young people. Data from the NHSon hospital admissions showed an 8% increase in knife injuries last year, with doctors saying the victims were getting younger and the injuries more severe. While the latest jump in stabbings is disturbing, the trend is not new: knife offences have been rising since the middle of the decade, having fallen for several years before that (an earlier high point was reached in 2006/07, although comparable crime survey data was not then collected by the ONS).

There is no single or simple answer to the question of why this disturbing increase in violence, which traumatises families and communities as well as cutting victims’ lives short, has taken place. The market for illegal drugs is part of the story, with violence used by criminal gangs to enforce discipline and settle scores. Waltham Forest council commissioned research which argued such organisations had become more professional, with a focus on profit replacing postcode rivalries. The phenomenon of children being exploited by “county lines” suppliers with customers in rural or seaside areas is now widely recognised. But more research into connections between the drugs trade and violent crime, particularly that involving children and young adults, is needed and should be prioritised.

The complexity of the issues is no excuse for inaction, however. A body of evidence, originating from a pioneering project in Chicago and later tested in Glasgow, proves that a public-health approach can drastically reduce violence of this nature. This involves recognising social determinants and risk factors including adverse early experiences and domestic violence, and making strategic interventions at various stages. Intelligent and robust policing is crucial, but so are the prevention techniques of mental health practitioners, educators, social workers and youth workers, who are skilled at working with young men.
What has never been, and will never be, effective is the indiscriminate use of stop and search. The former prime minister Theresa May understood this. In recent years senior police officers as well as politicians have spoken thoughtfully about the need to acknowledge links between crime and disadvantage. An action plan from the mayor of London’s violence reduction unit is expected shortly. So it was utterly depressing to watch the current home secretary, Priti Patel, and Boris Johnson appear to revel in turning back the clock, and encourage an increase in the use of stop and search in the midst of anti-racism protests.
Young people deserve better than this. So do we all. As we head into a period of acute economic difficulty, with all the suffering that entails, it should be remembered that high levels of violence in a society correspond closely to extreme inequality.

So by 'the guardian editorial' you mean a past one that you remember in your head but can't link to, rather than one relating to the current tragic event.

And by 'blaming everyone else' you mean setting out statistics on knife crime, talking about County Lines and pointing to evidence from Glasgow and Chicago that would either cancel out or complement your NYC experience (incidentally, of the three, as pointed out on here, only Glasgow is probably relevant given that guns, rather than knives are the problem in the States and thus, officers are armed).

And you've not credited that article to a writer, despite me pointing out that Comment Is Free is just that - the writer's opinion and not The Guardian's.

Well done.

 

[Live by the sea]

It was an editorial

The Guardian view on stabbings: stick to a public-health approach​

I have apologised for generalising all readers of that newspaper . People can obviously think for themselves & form their own opinions.

 

[Questions]

To me it's all in the data. Look at who are likely to be the perpetrators of knife crime in terms of age / sex / ethnic group and apply the same in terms of the victims. So for example if the demographic indicates white males between the age of 16-25 are likely to be the victims and perpetrators of knife crime operate a vigorous stop and search policy between certain hours of this demographic, back it up with a campaign explaining why you are doing this and surely the inconvenience to anyone who falls into this category is worth it if it saves lives. Surely sensible Policing is all about targeting the most likely perpetrators of knife crime.

Not any more it isn’t.

 

[Guinness Boy]

It was an editorial

The Guardian view on stabbings: stick to a public-health approach​

I have apologised for generalising all readers of that newspaper . People can obviously think for themselves & form their own opinions.

That's the headline to the article you posted? Would have been useful to post that and the link, no?

Nevertheless, it doesn't in any way, start 'blaming everyone else' does it?

 

[Live by the sea]

That's the headline to the article you posted? Would have been useful to post that and the link, no?

Nevertheless, it doesn't in any way, start 'blaming everyone else' does it?

I’m not very technical I’m afraid . Other stuff I’ve read in the guardian has, not in those exact words but they talk about all the conditions that breed this type of behaviour apparently rather than it’s wrong to stab people - period

 

[schmunk]

The last line isn’t one I agree with either . I’ve been to other countries like India & various Islands in the Caribbean etc where there is extreme inequality but teenagers don’t go around knifing each other .

That's patently not true:

Murder rates in the Caribbean are in the 10-50 / 100,000 inhabitants / year range.

Homicide rate in Latin America by country | Statista

In 2023, Jamaica and Ecuador topped the list of Latin American countries with the highest homicide rate. In contrast, Chile ranked as the most peaceful.

www.statista.com

The equivalent murder rate in the UK hovers around the 1/100,000 mark, <10% of the Caribbean figures.

Homicides in England and Wales 2023 | Statista

The number of homicides in England and Wales fell in 2022/23, when compared with the previous year, but remain higher than in the mid-2010s.

www.statista.com

 

[Live by the sea]

That's patently not true:

Murder rates in the Caribbean are in the 10-50 / 100,000 inhabitants / year range.

Homicide rate in Latin America by country | Statista

In 2023, Jamaica and Ecuador topped the list of Latin American countries with the highest homicide rate. In contrast, Chile ranked as the most peaceful.

www.statista.com

The equivalent murder rate in the UK hovers around the 1/100,000 mark, <10% of the Caribbean figures.

Homicides in England and Wales 2023 | Statista

The number of homicides in England and Wales fell in 2022/23, when compared with the previous year, but remain higher than in the mid-2010s.

www.statista.com

I’m not talking about Jamaica that is well known for having a lot of extreme violence due to its drug gangs.

I was specifically thinking of Dominican Republic where I went fairly recently

Italy , Spain , Germany , France all comparable European countries have a lower murder rate than the UK and they all have areas of poverty

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I’m not talking about Jamaica that is well known for having a lot of extreme violence due to its drug gangs.

It isn't due to drug gangs. Drug gangs are part of what you may get where there is poverty, political instability, and drugs.

I appreciate that none of us have the answers and it is reasonable to offer suggestions. Yours is to target young black males and if some of the largely white police doing the targetting do so in racist way this is a price worth paying. It is a view. I happen to consider it wrong.

If there is a pattern of behaviour it certainly makes sense to dig into it a bit and look for patterns of possible, cause. You appear to have fixed upon 'young and black' without any nuance or interest in considering whether there may be something in addition to this, that sets apart todays killer from, for example, Tariq Lamptey.

My suggestion is to attack the 'disrespect' culture. It isn't restricted to some black youth. It exists among some white youth too.

It is quite possible that Braverman may decide that ramping up stop and search of black youth is a cracking vote winner, sorry, I mean solution to the problem. But it won't be. Again I urge you to read about Swamp 81.

 

[Cornwallboy]

Perhaps if there was a stop and search policy in place Elianne might still be alive, a long shot I concede but a possibility.

For now we need to forget about what happened in 1981 and stop looking for 'explanations' and look at solving knife crime. If that involves stop and searching those who statistically speaking are most likely to be the perpetrators then so be it, if it saves lives which surely it will do then surely it's worth it.

 

[Live by the sea]

It isn't due to drug gangs. Drug gangs are part of what you may get where there is poverty, political instability, and drugs.

I appreciate that none of us have the answers and it is reasonable to offer suggestions. Yours is to target young black males and if some of the largely white police doing the targetting do so in racist way this is a price worth paying. It is a view. I happen to consider it wrong.

If there is a pattern of behaviour it certainly makes sense to dig into it a bit and look for patterns of possible, cause. You appear to have fixed upon 'young and black' without any nuance or interest in considering whether there may be something in addition to this, that sets apart todays killer from, for example, Tariq Lamptey.

My suggestion is to attack the 'disrespect' culture. It isn't restricted to some black youth. It exists among some white youth too.

It is quite possible that Braverman may decide that ramping up stop and search of black youth is a cracking vote winner, sorry, I mean solution to the problem. But it won't be. Again I urge you to read about Swamp 81.

Just to be clear , I don’t think it’s only some black teenagers, I have not said that . Target everyone that fits the stats , Black , White & Asian . Tariq doesn’t for example fit the profile to be targeted , his vibe & language Wouldn’t match a gang members .

 

[rogersix]

No and I apologise for that - nor would any of my friends describe me as right wing . I wouldn’t watch GB news or Fox .

are your friends right wing extremeists?

do you think your priviledged upbringing clouds your decision making process?

 

[Lenny Rider]

Despite the result, I had the pleasure of being taken to Stamford Bridge by my Chelsea mate Tony.

Hes the same age as me 59, but grew up in South London until he moved to Worthing just over 30 years ago.

He‘s Afro Caribbean and has often told me stories of growing up as a black youth in the 1970’s and 80’s.

Its jaw dropping frankly, we lived in Emmerdale in comparison and whilst you can never make excuses for the youth currently in custody, as a society have we not bought a lot of this on ourselves?

We‘ve effectively disenfranchised large sections of the second and third Windrush generation through government cuts and sadly at times blatant racism.

Knocking 60 I really don’t know what the answer is now?

Vote catching knee jerk vote winning directives by our politicians probably won’t solve anything

That said I would hope given they rightly reached out to the disaster victims in the last couple of weeks, the EPL and EFL rightly pay their respects to the murdered little girl this weekend?

I know sadly she’s one of 15 teenage victims this year in the capital but maybe her murder could be the catalyst for some kind of long term real change.

( Like we should have done when Stephen Lawrence was murdered 30 years ago)

 

[Cornwallboy]

Targeting white / black / asian is not being racist it is sensible Policing aimed at eradicating knife crime. If the stats show it is white youths who are most likely to commit knife crime then stop and search them between certain hours the same applies for black and asian youths.

As others have noted, if we could trust the met to go about their business appropriately, i.e. not treat the targetting of black youth as a gleeful opportunity to be obnoxiously racist, yes, this would make sense.

I refer you (yet again) to Swamp 81.

Know your history. Policing and society are not abstract theoretical constructs.

(I am surprised nobody has come along to ask 'what about the parents?')

 

[Cornwallboy]

Targeting a specific group who are most likely to commit knife crime is not racist it's common sense.

I don’t no and I never said that . What I did say is murder trumps racism .

 

[schmunk]

I’m not talking about Jamaica that is well known for having a lot of extreme violence due to its drug gangs.

I was specifically thinking of Dominican Republic where I went fairly recently

Which, as you'll note from the links in my post, has a murder rate roughly 10x that is the UK.

Of course you wouldn't have seen that in your visit, as killing grockles is bad for tourism, so generally frowned upon.