Trump/Farrage/NATO

[larus]

That isn't true. There is corruption all around the world, the west has built itself on trading, industrialising, and capitalism.

And a little dose of exploitation. However, this is the same the world over; the powerful nearly always abuse the weaker.

 

[JCL666]

But surely the Brexit and Trump elections prove that many people in the electorate have learnt from their mistakes?

The neo liberal political ideology of occupying the centre ground has been rejected, as have the promises of the same old centrist politicians saying they will make changes etc.

Trump and Brexit should be afforded the time to flourish, its on this basis that only time will tell if it has genuinely benefitted the US and UK respectively.

Only then can you say you were right.

There's a difference between learning from your mistakes and saying f**k you. I'd say that on the whole Brexit and Trump are due to disenfranchisement and the disconnect between representatives and the electorate. IMO a number of narcissists have utilised how the electorate feel to pursue their own agendas. There are obviously a ton of issues rolled up into that which have been debated on a number of other threads.

The concern I have is not the Trump or Brexit events per se, but how opportunists will be able to exploit the situation, that's why I mentioned the alt-right. On top of that I'm not a big fan of nationalist or protectionist policies which is where I think the UK and USA will be heading in the short term.

 

[sahel]

There's a difference between learning from your mistakes and saying f**k you. I'd say that on the whole Brexit and Trump are due to disenfranchisement and the disconnect between representatives and the electorate. IMO a number of narcissists have utilised how the electorate feel to pursue their own agendas. There are obviously a ton of issues rolled up into that which have been debated on a number of other threads.

The concern I have is not the Trump or Brexit events per se, but how opportunists will be able to exploit the situation, that's why I mentioned the alt-right. On top of that I'm not a big fan of nationalist or protectionist policies which is where I think the UK and USA will be heading in the short term.

I think all those tempted by Trump, Farage , Brexit etc should stop and think. The "political elite" and representative democracy has delivered since 1945 unparralled prosperity for huge numbers of people, an increasing reduction in conflict and violent crime, a large reduction in world poverty, a huge decrease in infant mortality across the globe, an almost equal education for girls and boys, an increase in life expectancy etc etc. I hope they are confident that years of Trump or the politics of Farage will do the same

 

[larus]

I think all those tempted by Trump, Farage , Brexit etc should stop and think. The "political elite" and representative democracy has delivered since 1945 unparralled prosperity for huge numbers of people, an increasing reduction in conflict and violent crime, a large reduction in world poverty, a huge decrease in infant mortality across the globe, an almost equal education for girls and boys, an increase in life expectancy etc etc. I hope they are confident that years of Trump or the politics of Farage will do the same

Wow, what a quantum leap to assume that technological/medical advances have been driven by the elite/technocrats of the world.

IMO, small government is better as let market forces decide (as a general rule). Of course, NHS, Police, Defence, Education etc need to be controlled by government, but governments should not meddle in industry nor engage in protectionism. Open economies are more successful then state-managed.

 

[Two Professors]

Wow! If nothing else this thread has succeeded in identifying/clarifying some of the potential black shirts on here.

And alternatively,the potential Burgess,Philby,and Blunt types as well!

 

[Triggaaar]

And a little dose of exploitation.

Yes, exploitation happens everywhere. The pyramids didn't build themselves, and neither did Rome.

 

[alfredmizen]

And alternatively,the potential Burgess,Philby,and Blunt types as well!

You are on one hell of a roll today !!

 

[Half Time Pies]

NATO is a name for an agreement and we live in a different world today. Once we understand that Russia is not an enemy we will realise that NATO isn’t really applicable. If anything Europe and Russia need closer ties and agreements in place because we have to protect our own continent. We could probably do with a Euro military and air force these days but do the US need to be a major part of it?

It is more important for Europe and Russia to see peace in the Middle East than it is for the US, because the US is half a world away. It is more important for Europe and Russia to align in strategy and with the US involved it makes it more complicated

If this is all about oil and energy I don’t care where I get it from or who gets rich from it because it makes no difference to my pocket. Our choice is lining the pockets of a rich Americans or lining the pockets of rich Russians so it really doesn’t matter who is providing or selling the resources? Maybe having a Russia with a better economy is better for Europe than fighting to keep it poor?

I certainly begrudge our money going to the Sunni states who only invest in Wahhabism, Islamic school of thought and the financing of extremist imams. Iran is more pragmatic in its approach to world politics than the Saudi’s and Shia Iran is not the same country as 10-40 years ago. Sunni Islam is impossible to work with and Shia Islam is less so.

If NATO is all about promoting Wahhabism, by design or default, and threatening Russia we need to take a seriously good look at ourselves and the purpose of NATO.

I am beginning to wonder if you are a member of the notorious Russian web brigade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades. It seems that at every opportunity you jump at the chance to spout the same pro Russian and Sunni Wahhabism nonsense. This is based on some absurd viewpoint that Russia just wants to be friends and that Putin is some sort of modern day Ghandi, seeking to sort out all of the mess that the US has made in the middle east for the benefit of all!

What evidence do you have that Putin and Russia has everyones best interests at heart?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Over the weekend Farage was enjoying himself with the global elite, it would normally be expected for a party political leader to be at the Cenotaph. In fact I expect those following the cult of Farage would crucify Corbyn if he had done similar but I expect Farage himself will get a free pass.

Farage might be the interim leader but he isn't an MP. Douglas Carswell is the only UKIP MP in Westminster. Nicola Sturgeon is the leader of the SNP, but wasn't the MP who laid the wreath as she isn't in the House of Commons.

 

[The Lemming Stomper]

I think Gary Johnson was about it.

Spot on mate...When he let Plymouth Argyle walk the ball in the net after that back pass it was amazing...He was probably annoyed at his son Lee for scoring the disputed goal too

 

[symyjym]

Not disagreeing but believe Mecca is built on Mohammed. The UK is supplying arms at considerable profit to Saudi to bomb the shit out of thousands of Yemeni civilians.

Yes, but if it wasn't for oil funding Islam it's growth in the last 80 years would have been limited. By the way there is reason to believe that Mecca was actually Petra and the Kaaba was moved to Mecca when Petra became uninhabitable. All the ancient maps form before 800 AD have no mention of Mecca.

 

[symyjym]

That isn't true. There is corruption all around the world, the west has built itself on trading, industrialising, and capitalism.

Yes this is what I mean. But the west was also built on slavery as well as trading, industrialising, and capitalism. When we accuse other countries of being corrupt we should look at our own history.

 

[cunning fergus]

There's a difference between learning from your mistakes and saying f**k you. I'd say that on the whole Brexit and Trump are due to disenfranchisement and the disconnect between representatives and the electorate. IMO a number of narcissists have utilised how the electorate feel to pursue their own agendas. There are obviously a ton of issues rolled up into that which have been debated on a number of other threads.

The concern I have is not the Trump or Brexit events per se, but how opportunists will be able to exploit the situation, that's why I mentioned the alt-right. On top of that I'm not a big fan of nationalist or protectionist policies which is where I think the UK and USA will be heading in the short term.

This is all very well, but my own reading is that the f**k you came from the politicians to the electorate first. When Gordon Brown labelled life long labour supporter Gillian Duffy a bigot for having the temerity to raise the challenge of immigration this merely franked in the electorate's mind how they were perceived by the political class.

Similarly the EU has long been a bone of contention for the British public and yet despite the overwhelming victory by UKIP in the last Euro elections the political class said f**k you.

I agree it's a lot more complex than this however I have no doubt in my mind that the mainstream political classes are merely reaping what they have sown.

I don't think it's over yet.........Renzi is already polling behind in Italy, if he loses his referendum in December the EU will be in full f**k off crisis mode.

 

[Soulman]

Yes this is what I mean. But the west was also built on slavery as well as trading, industrialising, and capitalism. When we accuse other countries of being corrupt we should look at our own history.

Here we go, HISTORY, times have changed. We must move on and tackle the issues today.

 

[symyjym]

I am beginning to wonder if you are a member of the notorious Russian web brigade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades. It seems that at every opportunity you jump at the chance to spout the same pro Russian and Sunni Wahhabism nonsense. This is based on some absurd viewpoint that Russia just wants to be friends and that Putin is some sort of modern day Ghandi, seeking to sort out all of the mess that the US has made in the middle east for the benefit of all!

What evidence do you have that Putin and Russia has everyones best interests at heart?

I am either part of the Russian web brigade or I am seeing something that you don't. It's not about being friends it's about not being enemies.

When David Cameron uses the threat of WWIII with Russia if we leave the EU, in his Brexit camaign, you have to be really thick if you don't see the scaremongering bullshit.

If you think Sunni Wahhabism is nonsense you need your head examined.

 

[Triggaaar]

Yes this is what I mean. But the west was also built on slavery as well as trading, industrialising, and capitalism.

But there was slavery elsewhere too, that's not the difference that sets the west apart.

When we accuse other countries of being corrupt we should look at our own history.

I do, I'm well aware of the great many things that westerns countries have done wrong. I value freedom though, and would like others to benefit from it, that's all.

 

[symyjym]

Here we go, HISTORY, times have changed. We must move on and tackle the issues today.

You are reading my comment out of context and you need to read what I wrote in response to Machiavelli before I responded to Triggaaar. http://www.northstandchat.com/showt...Farrage-NATO&p=7664390&viewfull=1#post7664390

You can probably gp back to http://www.northstandchat.com/showt...Farrage-NATO&p=7664313&viewfull=1#post7664313 to fully understand.

I agree with your comment "HISTORY, times have changed. We must move on and tackle the issues today." because that is my position too.

 

[cunning fergus]

Have people 'learnt from their mistakes' though?

Is Trump and/or the Rebublican going to end neoliberal politics in the US?

Is Brexit and/or Farage going to end neoliberal politics in the UK or the EU?

Nobody knows for certain, but it's much more likely following Trump and Brexit.

It is very likely the fallout of Brexit and Trump will have a marked influence on the 2018 elections in France and Germany. I read over the weekend that Sarkozy (mainstream politician) is currently employing a narrative in his campaign that the true French were the Gauls, and therefore new comers to France need to understand where they stand in the social heirachy.

This is not Le Pen, but Sarkozy..........if Farage was to use the same invective in the U.K. the media and political classes would be in meltdown.

It's very clear what constituency Sarkozy is appealing too.

 

[Theatre of Trees]

Here we go, HISTORY, times have changed. We must move on and tackle the issues today.

"Those that fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it."

 

[symyjym]

But there was slavery elsewhere too, that's not the difference that sets the west apart.

I do, I'm well aware of the great many things that westerns countries have done wrong. I value freedom though, and would like others to benefit from it, that's all.

We are going off tangent here. I didn't have to use slavery as an example, I could have used the corrupt nature of Blair taking us to war by deceit, and our banking system where the bankers can legally and freely **** us all up.

My point stands in the context of the comment flow