sudan crisis- should western governments pay for aid?

[Eastleigh Seagull]

just to try and clarify the bit on arms sales - Sudan has been under a mandatory EU arms embargo since 1994. The US terminated arms sales and transfers to Sudan in late 1992 and designated Sudan as a country supporting international terrorism in October 1993.

The main sources of arms procurement are Russia, China, Ukraine, Libya and Iran.

I am sure that many will somehow spin the story that we are to blame for the situation in Sudan but these are the facts of where the arms for the Sudanese government are coming from. The insurgency is heavily backed by the Arab countries who are, perhaps naturally supporting their kin against the repressive regime of the South.

 

[m20gull]

From Amensty International (OK I know it's not theft of a loaf of bread)

12 January 2004

IRAN A woman and her husband, names not known

A woman and her husband have reportedly been sentenced to death in connection with running a brothel. One of them is to be stoned to death, which amounts to torture, and both are to be flogged.

According to Iran newspaper of 8 January 2004, they had stablished a brothel (khane-e fesad, or 'house of corruption') in the Mohammadiyeh area of Qazvin, central Iran. The police Office for the Fight Against Corruption (Edare-ye Mobarzeh ba Mofased) became aware of this around March 2003, and raided the brothel after keeping it under surveillance for two weeks. They detained the couple running the brothel, along with several others, and seized alcohol, drugs, obscene photographs and pornographic video footage, including some in which girl and women were abused (azar va aziyat). The couple had allegedly used the footage to extort money from those involved.

The report gives no details of the trial, at a criminal court in Qazvin, but says that one defendant was sentenced to 13 years' imprisonment, six years of which is to be served in another location, 155 lashes and a fine, followed by death by hanging; the other to 10 years' imprisonment, five of which are to be
served in another location, and 80 lashes, followed by death by stoning

 

[Lammy]

As a side note...

"Under Iran's strict Islamic law, in place since the 1979 Islamic revolution, men and women convicted of adultery are normally sentenced to death by stoning. Men are buried up to their waists in a pit and women up to their shoulders. Onlookers are then invited to pelt them with stones until death. According to the law, the stones must be big enough to injure but not kill with just a few blows, which Amnesty International has described as a "method specifically designed to increase the victim's suffering". The victim is acquitted if he or she manages to get out of the pit. "

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EA14Ak02.html

 

[m20gull]

just to try and clarify the bit on arms sales - Sudan has been under a mandatory EU arms embargo since 1994. The US terminated arms sales and transfers to Sudan in late 1992 and designated Sudan as a country supporting international terrorism in October 1993.

The main sources of arms procurement are Russia, China, Ukraine, Libya and Iran.

I am sure that many will somehow spin the story that we are to blame for the situation in Sudan but these are the facts of where the arms for the Sudanese government are coming from. The insurgency is heavily backed by the Arab countries who are, perhaps naturally supporting their kin against the repressive regime of the South.

What about arms for the SPLA?

 

[Lord Bracknell]

... OK I know it's not theft ...

Precisely.

I'm concerned with the wild, prejudiced accusations that are floating around. They are not based upon facts, but upon rabble rousing.

Gareth is a victim of this. I don't like to see him turn into a perpetrator.

 

[Lammy]

Precisely.

I'm concerned with the wild, prejudiced accusations that are floating around. They are not based upon facts, but upon rabble rousing.

Gareth is a victim of this. I don't like to see him turn into a perpetrator.

picky picky picky....

 

[Eastleigh Seagull]

sorry got my North and South mixed up and misread the briefing note from my colleague who works on these areas - the government based in the North and now supported by Arab governments, and the aformentioned arms suppliers, are suppressing the african communities in the South, including Darfur. The rebel groups are very lightly armed and are suspected of being assisted by groups coming over from Chad. These groups are trying to destablise Chad as well and the influx of refugees coming from Darfur into Chad is helping them somewhat in their cause and hence it is in their interest to keep things unstable.

 

[m20gull]

amazing what you can find - this from Pravda in 2002 - those sexist Muslims

Iranian woman escapes stoning

In the central Iranian city of Yazd, a woman managed to escape from her sentence of death by stoning by crawling out of her hole.

Under the Sharia, the accused is buried up to the neck in the earth and stones are thrown by those who wish to punish her. If the accused is able to escape by her own means, it is considered that she should be able to walk away free. In the case of men, they are only buried up to the waist, so they have more chance of escaping.

 

[Eastleigh Seagull]

Just as a small addendum dont place too much focus on where arms are coming from. Like in Rwanda the vast majority of the killings in this conflict are coming from pretty basic methods including beatings, swords and small arms (weapons not little people), which before anyone starts blaming the US and its policies in Africa during the cold war, these weapons mostly came from the Soviet Union which was much stronger in this region of Africa.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

I have criticised Arab regimes for the way they treat their women etc and been flamed for it. I want to put it on record that I have a problem with some Arab regimes/dictators and Islamic Fundamentalists not Arab individuals. I do not like the persecution of women, stoning, lack of education in some states. I am not a rascist and am not anti Muslim as I have never said this. Someone people have twisted this into their own agenda.

People are getting very hot under the collar including me. I need a Strongbow.

 

[Lammy]

Mmmmmm Strongbow....

 

[Man of Harveys]

At last, something we can all agree on...oh I would love a drop of cider now...

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

We'll both have a Cider and toast our differences MOH !.

 

[Hunting 784561]

Simple question for the 'all civilisations are equally valid' supporters.

How many true democracies in the middle east or arab world are there ? (clue : dont include Israel).

Any decent or civilised nation should be able to change its leaders if they dont like what those leaders are doing to their country.

 

[Lammy]

If I'm honest though I'd rather have a pint of full, well-hopped bitter with a reputation that exceeds the borders of its native and adjoining counties.

 

[Man of Harveys]

If I'm honest though I'd rather have a pint of full, well-hopped bitter with a reputation that exceeds the borders of its native and adjoining counties.

Bigot

 

[Lammy]

Bigot

 

[Yorkie]

My exhusband worked for British Areospace in Saudi Arabia for two years in the 80's.

If a thief was convicted he would have his hand cut off but not by a sword but by surgical operation under anaesthetic.

Adultery was punishable by stoning as already said.

 

[FG aka Football Genius.]

yes we should provide aid assistance practical help but not forgetting our responsibility to British Citizens. perhaps if there was oil over there we wouldntve let this unnecessary human tragety get to state it has. Not that im suggesting we do another Iraq! No aid and massess of it is required now and all countries that can help should be. The UN needs as sum1 puts it to be beefed up, Britain wont make much difference alone and any pressure possible from puppet blair on his Euro and other allies shouold be used to further quickly mass the help Sudan so urgently requires.

 

[goldstone]

Let them sort their own problems out.

And no doubt they're busy producing more babies to also starve to death when if they posessed half a brain at least they'd stop having kids until they had food and a safe environment to bring them up in.

And who suggested giving to Oxfam? Right, so your money can line the pockets of some fat-cat CEO who gets paid an outrageous salary. Or maybe they'll spend it on sending begging envelopes through the mail with stupid free ball-point pens which I'll throw in the garbage as soon as I see them.