Junior Doctors

[beorhthelm]

Well the only conclusion I can draw is that there are some things their health service does well, and some that ours does better.

I just don't think it's fair to say "the French system is better".

absolutely, people will draw conclusions of health services on comparison of a single metric when there are dozens of them. we score relatively poorly on clinical outcomes for some conditions, but very high on detection of the same - so is the fact we detect and treat an ultimately terminal condition good or bad?

 

[Seagull27]

Thats what i mean, and enforce it as well , unlike health tourism , where NHS trusts routinely wipe out debts.

Isn't that what happened up until a few years ago when they removed it? Might be wrong. It certainly was the case for some NHS staff

 

[alfredmizen]

Isn't that what happened up until a few years ago when they removed it? Might be wrong. It certainly was the case for some NHS staff

I havent got a clue , silly move if its true.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Well the only conclusion I can draw is that there are some things their health service does well, and some that ours does better.

I just don't think it's fair to say "the French system is better".

It doesn't happen often but I find myself in a position where I can give a proper informed opinion on this subject.
I spent several years travelling around Europe comparing the different health systems for a medical marketing business. My interest was primarily the secondary (hospital) care market. More specifically the critical care provision.

Overall the NHS is an infinitely better system than that available in France, Italy, and even Germany. Scandinavia has the best provision in the world IMO and the UK stacks up well against them. By and large the NHS is far more accountable, subjects itself to far higher levels of scrutiny and audit is far less likely to inflict a medical error on its patients and, when mistakes are made, is far more likely to report and act on it.

Nurses are far more skilled in the UK than France and Germany with, once again, Scandinavia being the closest comparator.

The NHS is by far and away the most burdened service in the western world. It sees and treats far more patients, we have the highest incidence of morbid disease in Europe and a far less robust private sector to share the strain. We should be damned proud.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

It doesn't happen often but I find myself in a position where I can give a proper informed opinion on this subject.
.

Well, excuse me, but that is hardly the NSC way. You have simply let your mind be cluttered by research, facts, and experience.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

It is good to read that by the way.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Well, excuse me, but that is hardly the NSC way. You have simply let your mind be cluttered by research, facts, and experience.

I know. Don't worry. I'll be back to ill informed opinions, hearsay and half truths designed to back up my own ridiculous agenda.very soon.

Sorry.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

I know. Don't worry. I'll be back to ill informed opinions, hearsay and half truths designed to back up my own ridiculous agenda.very soon.

Sorry.

Good man.

We'll forgive you this one.

 

[El Presidente]

Its quite simple, they shouldnt be saddled with any debt, they should be contracted to work for the NHS for a specified number of years and as a result have no tuition fees for a start.

They are effectively contracted to work for the NHS for a set period though, as a private hospital won't touch them until they get a certain number of hours under their belt.

I've always argued that governments (regardless of party) should be increasing the supply of domestically trained doctors by building new medical schools. The advantages as far as I can see them are

1: It will help meet the demands of an increasingly elderly and obese nation.
2: It will mean less foreign doctors being recruited, who can therefore practice in their own countries.

Why don't our political rulers make such a change? It would take 5-7 years to build a new medical school and another 5-7 years to train a new generation of doctors, and the likes of Lansbury, Hunt and Osborne can't see beyond the next election date (and Labour and the LD's are no better).

At the same time WE can make a difference to help save the NHS hundreds of millions. Turn up to appointments, don't clog up A&E with a cough, stop eating and drinking to excess and get some exercise.

The cost of diabetes in this country is already over £10 billion a year, and is set to double every ten years. It's largely a self inflicted condition.

 

[El Presidente]

Contrast the pay of junior doctors in the UK compared to a friend of mine who is a GP in Poland. She is head of practice based in a local hospital and her take home pay each month is 1400 euros, at today's rate £1000. Fortunately she is married to a professor of neurosurgery who works for both state and private sectors, however his income is no where near a consultant in the UK. Perhaps it explains why so many doctors from around the world wish to work in the NHS.

Why compare to Polish doctors though?

In the US the lowest paid doctors (equivalent to our GP's) are on an average of $189,000, and consultants take home at least half a million.

 

[alfredmizen]

They are effectively contracted to work for the NHS for a set period though, as a private hospital won't touch them until they get a certain number of hours under their belt.

I've always argued that governments (regardless of party) should be increasing the supply of domestically trained doctors by building new medical schools. The advantages as far as I can see them are

1: It will help meet the demands of an increasingly elderly and obese nation.
2: It will mean less foreign doctors being recruited, who can therefore practice in their own countries.

Why don't our political rulers make such a change? It would take 5-7 years to build a new medical school and another 5-7 years to train a new generation of doctors, and the likes of Lansbury, Hunt and Osborne can't see beyond the next election date (and Labour and the LD's are no better).

At the same time WE can make a difference to help save the NHS hundreds of millions. Turn up to appointments, don't clog up A&E with a cough, stop eating and drinking to excess and get some exercise.

The cost of diabetes in this country is already over £10 billion a year, and is set to double every ten years. It's largely a self inflicted condition.

Cant argue with that

 

[happypig]

stop eating and drinking to excess and get some exercise..

Steady on...

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

They are effectively contracted to work for the NHS for a set period though, as a private hospital won't touch them until they get a certain number of hours under their belt.

I've always argued that governments (regardless of party) should be increasing the supply of domestically trained doctors by building new medical schools. The advantages as far as I can see them are

1: It will help meet the demands of an increasingly elderly and obese nation.
2: It will mean less foreign doctors being recruited, who can therefore practice in their own countries.

Why don't our political rulers make such a change? It would take 5-7 years to build a new medical school and another 5-7 years to train a new generation of doctors, and the likes of Lansbury, Hunt and Osborne can't see beyond the next election date (and Labour and the LD's are no better).

At the same time WE can make a difference to help save the NHS hundreds of millions. Turn up to appointments, don't clog up A&E with a cough, stop eating and drinking to excess and get some exercise.

The cost of diabetes in this country is already over £10 billion a year, and is set to double every ten years. It's largely a self inflicted condition.

What an excellent post. I have worked in critical care for years and it is desperately clear that your proposal is the only right way to go.
My own experience tells me that foreign Doctors are often a liability with poor interpersonal skills and questionable bona fides. There are many overseas medics who are brilliant too, but it is staggering how many I have known who are borderline dangerous.

It is possible to point to which countries provide decent medics and which don't but why risk it? British doctors please. Trained in Britain to British standards. It's going to need focus and commitment but we are desperately short of well trained Doctors and Nurses and we are relying increasingly on locum and agency clinicians who are, frankly, often a menace.

 

[alfredmizen]

What an excellent post. I have worked in critical care for years and it is desperately clear that your proposal is the only right way to go.
My own experience tells me that foreign Doctors are often a liability with poor interpersonal skills and questionable bona fides. There are many overseas medics who are brilliant too, but it is staggering how many I have known who are borderline dangerous.

It is possible to point to which countries provide decent medics and which don't but why risk it? British doctors please. Trained in Britain to British standards. It's going to need focus and commitment but we are desperately short of well trained Doctors and Nurses and we are relying increasingly on locum and agency clinicians who are, frankly, often a menace.

Its ridiculous , no, irresponsible that this isnt policy.

 

[Hastings gull]

My sister lives in France and their system is infinitely better than ours , unfortunately ''free at the point of care'' has become a sticking point with politicians.

Having experienced the German system myself and seen the benefits of the French system with our friends over there, it is hard to disagree with this, irrespective of any political bias.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Having experienced the German system myself and seen the benefits of the French system with our friends over there, it is hard to disagree with this, irrespective of any political bias.

It's probably worth mentioning that France and Germany have huge rates of medication error and under reporting og adverse events because of the competitive nature of healthcare provision over there. I could tell you stories that would make your teeth curl regarding what happens in German and French hospitals.
if you look at published data and don't enquire too much it would be very easy to believe what you have stated.

I would much rather trust the NHS than the equivalents on the continent.

 

[Hastings gull]

It's probably worth mentioning that France and Germany have huge rates of medication error and under reporting og adverse events because of the competitive nature of healthcare provision over there. I could tell you stories that would make your teeth curl regarding what happens in German and French hospitals.
if you look at published data and don't enquire too much it would be very easy to believe what you have stated.

I would much rather trust the NHS than the equivalents on the continent.

You may or may not be right, for all I know. I can only report as I have found. I do accept that if you take published data for gospel, then you (not necessarily you personally, I might add!) have to be rather naïve, but then again teeth-curling stories might also be the case for the NHS! It is afterall,only human nature to want to conceal your failings. I do not know enough to be able to judge with any degree of authority which system is better, but those who were reliant on Stafford Hospital may not now share your confidence in the NHS.

 

[El Presidente]

It's probably worth mentioning that France and Germany have huge rates of medication error and under reporting og adverse events because of the competitive nature of healthcare provision over there. I could tell you stories that would make your teeth curl regarding what happens in German and French hospitals.
if you look at published data and don't enquire too much it would be very easy to believe what you have stated.

I would much rather trust the NHS than the equivalents on the continent.

Are you saying it wouldn't happen in Germany?

 

[Boroseagull]

Why compare to Polish doctors though?

In the US the lowest paid doctors (equivalent to our GP's) are on an average of $189,000, and consultants take home at least half a million.

Compared to Polish doctors/surgeons because they are working within the EU and not the USA. Darek has had many offers to work in the USA but the surgeon/doctor insurance indemnity is simply astronomical, hence their high salary's and fees. I also compared having been friends for many years.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Are you saying it wouldn't happen in Germany?

Ha.