Junior Doctors

[Thunder Bolt]

Although quite obviously the thread starter is fishing ..... I actually agree with the aims of the changes but not the method. It's utterly bizarre and stupid that the NHS doesn't work the same on weekends than it does during the week. This is our HEALTH for god sake. My late grandmother was admitted to hospital with what ended up being cancer. The duty doctor wanted to discharge her on a Friday night but couldn't do it until Monday because the hospital pharmacy didn't have some one that could dispense the correct drugs for her after 5pm on the Friday. So money was wasted and a bed was blocked for over two days for the sake of getting medical professionals to work over a weekend. In fact, I think all NHS services should be available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

The Junior Doctors I do have sympathies for, the change of contract looks crap. That said, work in a hotel in unsocial hours and you get no extra money !

Money wasted is the biggest bugbear of mine. Different departments don't talk to each other and things get held up. I could tell you of two cases recently that have happened to friends of mine, but it's not for a public forum.
There is money in the NHS, but the organisation and management needs a major overhaul.

 

[alfredmizen]

I am not a Conservative supporter, but I do have a daughter who is a junior doctor. She is about the least political person I know, and is a doctor because she cares. Of the 76% who voted, she was one of the 98% who voted to strike - that's quite overwhelming, really. She said in a message yesterday "I'm not going to let those Tory bar stewards ruin our NHS."

Jeremy C Hunt has done a remarkable job of taking on one of the most erudite and articulate and thinking group of employees we have in the country and turning them right off!

Yeah, she sounds like ''least political person I know''.

 

[drew]

Contrast the pay of junior doctors in the UK compared to a friend of mine who is a GP in Poland. She is head of practice based in a local hospital and her take home pay each month is 1400 euros, at today's rate £1000. Fortunately she is married to a professor of neurosurgery who works for both state and private sectors, however his income is no where near a consultant in the UK. Perhaps it explains why so many doctors from around the world wish to work in the NHS.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...t.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=Poland

Might explain a little why they are different. Also, how much did your friend pay to train as a doctor and how much student debt do they have?

 

[Igzilla]

Money wasted is the biggest bugbear of mine. Different departments don't talk to each other and things get held up. I could tell you of two cases recently that have happened to friends of mine, but it's not for a public forum.
There is money in the NHS, but the organisation and management needs a major overhaul.

This. I have a friend who works in NHS Procurement. He freely admits he has no training, background or understanding of his job. I've met his boss too, who admitted she wasn't very good at maths, so just made up numbers on her spreadsheets to make it look like she was balancing the budget. It's not the doctors that are the problem, it's the structural organisation that needs reform.

 

[drew]

I would say, if you don't want to work so called un-social hours except with extra pay, don't become a doctor.
There are huge numbers of young people who are turned down for medical school each year, so there is hardly a problem there.
On the whole, doctors get well paid , have good security of employment, good prospects, a good pension and are respected members of the community.
The NHS in its present form is unsustainable and things have to change.No Government has had the balls to grasp the nettle and tell the public the truth about what really needs to be done as they will face hysteria and be booted into the long grass for eternity.
The BMA are a pretty powerful and militant bunch, who play on the fact that the general public will generally take on the default position of backing the goodies(the doctors) and booing the baddies( Government of the day). It is never that straightforward.
I comment as one who comes from a family of GP's, surgeons and nurses.

Firstly, why do you think those people were rejected in the first place? Could be that it was due to the calibre of the applicants. Sounds like you would be happy for inferior quality doctors making judgments about your health.

As for the NHS being unsustainable, what alternative do you suggest. Do you want a system like the states or maybe like France, Germany etc. We spend less on healthcare as a % of GDP than most countries that our health system gets compared with. There are basically two ways of funding healthcare, taxation or insurance. Which do you prefer?


http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/health-care-spending-compared

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Firstly, why do you think those people were rejected in the first place? Could be that it was due to the calibre of the applicants. Sounds like you would be happy for inferior quality doctors making judgments about your health.

As for the NHS being unsustainable, what alternative do you suggest. Do you want a system like the states or maybe like France, Germany etc. We spend less on healthcare as a % of GDP than most countries that our health system gets compared with. There are basically two ways of funding healthcare, taxation or insurance. Which do you prefer?


http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/health-care-spending-compared

There aren't enough training places being funded. It isn't about the quality of the applicants. The money is being wasted on paying off inadequate chief executives who are not fit for purpose. £250K golden handshakes!!

 

[Simster]

I would say, if you don't want to work so called un-social hours except with extra pay, don't become a doctor.
There are huge numbers of young people who are turned down for medical school each year, so there is hardly a problem there.
On the whole, doctors get well paid , have good security of employment, good prospects, a good pension and are respected members of the community.
The NHS in its present form is unsustainable and things have to change.No Government has had the balls to grasp the nettle and tell the public the truth about what really needs to be done as they will face hysteria and be booted into the long grass for eternity.
The BMA are a pretty powerful and militant bunch, who play on the fact that the general public will generally take on the default position of backing the goodies(the doctors) and booing the baddies( Government of the day). It is never that straightforward.
I comment as one who comes from a family of GP's, surgeons and nurses.

Point taken, but surely it's the overwhelming extent of support for a strike that tells you Hunt might have got this badly wrong? For all this bluster about governments of the day being the baddies and the doctors being the goodies, we have to remember that people as assets shouldn't be taken for granted - one day we might just find that nobody wants to become a doctor any more, what with the working demands AND level of debt they are initially saddled with.

 

[alfredmizen]

Point taken, but surely it's the overwhelming extent of support for a strike that tells you Hunt might have got this badly wrong? For all this bluster about governments of the day being the baddies and the doctors being the goodies, we have to remember that people as assets shouldn't be taken for granted - one day we might just find that nobody wants to become a doctor any more, what with the working demands AND level of debt they are initially saddled with.

Its quite simple, they shouldnt be saddled with any debt, they should be contracted to work for the NHS for a specified number of years and as a result have no tuition fees for a start.

 

[BLOCK F]

Firstly, why do you think those people were rejected in the first place? Could be that it was due to the calibre of the applicants. Sounds like you would be happy for inferior quality doctors making judgments about your health.

As for the NHS being unsustainable, what alternative do you suggest. Do you want a system like the states or maybe like France, Germany etc. We spend less on healthcare as a % of GDP than most countries that our health system gets compared with. There are basically two ways of funding healthcare, taxation or insurance. Which do you prefer?


http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/health-care-spending-compared

Do you really think that all those who are unable to gain a place at medical school would be unsuitable to become doctors? Rubbish, it means that there is a huge over subscription of highly qualified applicants for places available.
Yes, the NHS is unsustainable in its present form and Britain is falling down a number of the league tables in health statistics compared to other nations.
It is not just a simple case of throwing more money at the NHS, the organisation is huge, unwieldy, and in many instances wasteful and inefficient.It is not a question of what system I would prefer, it is more a question of what needs to be done to create a healthcare system in this country that is sustainable well into the future. When the NHS was formed in 1948, the world was a different place. I do believe that in future, there will be a mixture of funding for healthcare.......yes, taxation, insurance and charges.

 

[alfredmizen]

Firstly, why do you think those people were rejected in the first place? Could be that it was due to the calibre of the applicants. Sounds like you would be happy for inferior quality doctors making judgments about your health.

As for the NHS being unsustainable, what alternative do you suggest. Do you want a system like the states or maybe like France, Germany etc. We spend less on healthcare as a % of GDP than most countries that our health system gets compared with. There are basically two ways of funding healthcare, taxation or insurance. Which do you prefer?


http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/health-care-spending-compared

My sister lives in France and their system is infinitely better than ours , unfortunately ''free at the point of care'' has become a sticking point with politicians.

 

[Simster]

Its quite simple, they shouldnt be saddled with any debt, they should be contracted to work for the NHS for a specified number of years and as a result have no tuition fees for a start.

Hard to disagree with you there.

 

[Boroseagull]

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...t.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=Poland

Might explain a little why they are different. Also, how much did your friend pay to train as a doctor and how much student debt do they have?

She, and her husband didn't pay to train they were bought through the communist system in place at that time. He being older regales me with stories of being sent to the UK & USA on a pittance to train. However his abiding memory was at his first UK hospital in Sheffield in 1982. He drove over in a Polski 126 [2 stroke engine], arrived at the hospital was shown to his accommodation. He just unpacked his bag when there was a knock on the door and 2 union reps were there. Their opening gambit was being a foreigner he would probably be subject to taunts and abuse and therefore should join the union immediately. Being an intelligent man and experiencing a communist system he refused to be intimidated and of course nothing like that happened, he put it down to union tactics of a 'closed shop' system.

 

[BLOCK F]

Point taken, but surely it's the overwhelming extent of support for a strike that tells you Hunt might have got this badly wrong? For all this bluster about governments of the day being the baddies and the doctors being the goodies, we have to remember that people as assets shouldn't be taken for granted - one day we might just find that nobody wants to become a doctor any more, what with the working demands AND level of debt they are initially saddled with.

All students are saddled with horrible amounts of debt these days, but that is a story for another day. Whilst the present system exists and there are huge amounts of students wanting to get into medical and dental school, I wouldn't prioritise debt reduction for them in particular.At least they are certain of getting a job enabling them to repay those debts!
My view on the strike is that there are faults on both sides and further negotiations should be held.However, as I stated, the BMA are up there with the best when it comes to propaganda and stridency.Hunt seems to be the first Health Secretary (a thankless task!!!!) to have the balls to, at least, try and challenge their power.

 

[Simster]

My sister lives in France and their system is infinitely better than ours , unfortunately ''free at the point of care'' has become a sticking point with politicians.

My step mother lived there for ten years, her sister has lived there for 30, and even my wife lived there for a year. All of them will tell you the NHS is far better than the French system.

You have to fork out up front, and then get reimbursed, and you can be sure you won't get it all back too. Is this really an area we want to be penny pinching?

 

[alfredmizen]

My step mother lived there for ten years, her sister has lived there for 30, and even my wife lived there for a year. All of them will tell you the NHS is far better than the French system.

You have to fork out up front, and then get reimbursed, and you can be sure you won't get it all back too. Is this really an area we want to be penny pinching?

They dont have the waiting times we do though do they ? Have a look at their Cancer survival rates compared to ours.

 

[alfredmizen]

All students are saddled with horrible amounts of debt these days, but that is a story for another day. Whilst the present system exists and there are huge amounts of students wanting to get into medical and dental school, I wouldn't prioritise debt reduction for them in particular.At least they are certain of getting a job enabling them to repay those debts!
My view on the strike is that there are faults on both sides and further negotiations should be held.However, as I stated, the BMA are up there with the best when it comes to propaganda and stridency.Hunt seems to be the first Health Secretary (a thankless task!!!!) to have the balls to, at least, try and challenge their power.

Just a thought , we want more home grown doctors, we want to retain more of them , hence lets give them a carrot, ie no tuition fees if they work for the NHS for a specified number of years.

 

[Simster]

They dont have the waiting times we do though do they ? Have a look at their Cancer survival rates compared to ours.

Well the only conclusion I can draw is that there are some things their health service does well, and some that ours does better.

I just don't think it's fair to say "the French system is better".

 

[alfredmizen]

Well the only conclusion I can draw is that there are some things their health service does well, and some that ours does better.

I just don't think it's fair to say "the French system is better".

No, fair enough, but instead of blindly ( not necessarily you) repeating the free at the point of care mantra , i'm sure we can learn from the likes of germany, france, australia , canada etc

 

[wellquickwoody]

Its quite simple, they shouldnt be saddled with any debt, they should be contracted to work for the NHS for a specified number of years and as a result have no tuition fees for a start.

Would that not be restrictive practice? Is it even legal to stop them leaving to work elsewhere? Maybe make them repay their training costs if they leave too early (otherwise known as a debt)? Many thousands of doctors join the NHS from all over the world, I wonder if the pay and conditions are something to do with it?

 

[alfredmizen]

Would that not be restrictive practice? Is it even legal to stop them leaving to work elsewhere? Maybe make them repay their training costs if they leave too early (otherwise known as a debt)? Many thousands of doctors join the NHS from all over the world, I wonder if the pay and conditions are something to do with it?

Thats what i mean, and enforce it as well , unlike health tourism , where NHS trusts routinely wipe out debts.