JFC - Please God make this the last time we have to watch him play in an Albion shirt...

[GT49er]

Yes, he didn't have a good game yesterday - but let's face it, most of the time he whole team were outplayed. They were up against a very good Arsenal team who were clearly on a mission to avoid going the same way as Chelski and the blue Mancs, and played with a speed and accuracy that many of our players will never have come up against before.

Yes, we did pick up in the second half, but we were still under the cosh. Even the third goal, although it was defensive errors, they were errors caused by a defence panicked by the speed at which things were flying round at them.

That said, I think the JFC stuff is now turning into a witch hunt, which can't be doing the boy any good. Personally I would have played Colunga rather than JFC yesterday - but what do I know? Maybe it is time for him to go out on a half season loan to a League One club, just to take the pressure off him. Tex is just starting to pay off in that Advanced midfield / number 10 role, and there the new bloke from Celtic to come into the equation as well - and Crofts and Stephens to come back.

 

[JBizzle]

Why do people keep on using this England U-21 argument, it could just show that there is a severe lack of English footballing talent. He is only playing for Hughton due to lack of fitness of other midfielders and when he doesnt play we look like a better midfield unit.

There's always an excuse. He plays for the U-21s because no-one else is good enough, he plays for us because everyone else is injured. Irrespective of all that, he's still playing and he will continue to play.

 

[Icy Gull]

I haven't read the thread but this JFC knocking is starting to turn into a Ashley Barnes like witch hunt imo.

 

[jay d]

For me, he isn't a terrible player, he isn't the reason we're struggling, but he hasn't produced the goods enough for many fans.

I've made the following point before in another thread, but it seems to fit here, so I'll make it again.

I think the comparisons to Barnes are ill-founded. With Barnes people were able to point to what he did on the field to argue what he contributed, when he was absent people were able to point to what we were missing.

People don't do that for JFC.

All that we hear is "well, he gets picked by Poyet/Oscar/Hyypia/England U21s" and "he's played out of position, play him as an attacking midfielder and see what we'll get".

But let's look at that:

Poyet - Picked him only a handful of times. Poyet was frequently criticised for not playing the youngsters enough, JFC wasn't someone who was playing enough to counter that criticism.
Oscar - Had to deal with injuries to Crofts, Stephens, Orlandi, and out of form David, a Bridcutt who wasn't in the right frame of mind. When he had most or all of them available, JFC wasn't in the starting line up.
Hyypia - Is the man who people have criticised for picking the wrong players (particularly his not picking of Ince). When his selections are being question, there's an inconsistency to using him picking JFC as a defence of Jake. He also had Stephens and Crofts out for most of his run, and out of shape Agustien.
U21s - Are there a lot of under 21 English midfielders getting first team time at this level or higher that haven't pushed into the England first team? Is being considered good enough to play against other kids really that good of an argument on it's own?

When people defend his performance with "he's played out of position", there is an implied acceptance that he isn't performing that well, it isn't a denial of under-performance, but a mitigation for it.

How long does he need to be playing in a position before he starts to show improvement in it? (Ashley Barnes playing the lone striker role for the first time last season, started to show an improvement after 6 games, after being shifted out wide, Barnes improved to the point we often looked weaker when he wasn't there to protect the left back) If you are naturally a skilled attacking player being played in a defensive role, your natural attacking tendencies will leak out occasionally, you'll get drawn into making that attacking run, you'll get caught too far forward, you will get into attacking positions and try to make things happen. He hasn't shown any of that. He's had time to improve in that role.

Under Hughton, we've had Holla and Ince as defensive midfielders, and after so long playing a defensive role, JFC should be allowed time to become re-accustomed to his "natural position" but he needs to step up.

People who see something in him need to stop using managers picking him and his position as a defence of what many people consider to be poor performances and start basing their arguments on what Jake actually does on the pitch, what he actually brings to the team, if they want to address the growing criticism of him and convince their fellow supporters of his merits.

Ive tried giving you a thumbs up, hope it worked.

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

Good squad player,and back up nothing more nothing less. I think Solly came on and shone for us yesterday and that somewhat did not help JFC case any.

 

[studio150]

Some people won't be satisfied with any player until we have a squad of all world cup winners win every game at least 5-0 and win the premier league without dropping a point while also winning the champions league. Given that all the managers at the club sine JFC broke into the side have had faith in him, would suggest that the moaners are clueless when it comes to judging a players worth to the team

 

[Mellotron]

The comparison between JFC and Barnes clearly works

Barnes - whilst at Brighton - brought the following to the team;

Goals
Assists
A proper shift, hard work
Good defensive ability from set pieces
Positional intelligence
An insane determination and will to win
Never shirked responsibility or "hid"

I'm not sure if JFC brings ANY of those.

 

[ken tiler]

Some people won't be satisfied with any player until we have a squad of all world cup winners win every game at least 5-0 and win the premier league without dropping a point while also winning the champions league. Given that all the managers at the club sine JFC broke into the side have had faith in him, would suggest that the moaners are clueless when it comes to judging a players worth to the team

When it comes to JFKs contribution to the team I admit to being completely clueless. Those that obviously no more than I, please enlighten me.

 

[jay d]

Tbh if were chasing a game jfc is the last person on my mind to bring on.
if we need more stability jfc is the last person on my mind to bring on.
if are corners and free kicks are s*it jfc is the last person on my mind to bring on.
when we make a sub to bring some one on , I never think if its jfc " why they taking him off he's been excellent.

So for these reasons I think he aint that good.

 

[yxee]

Some people won't be satisfied with any player until we have a squad of all world cup winners win every game at least 5-0 and win the premier league without dropping a point while also winning the champions league. Given that all the managers at the club sine JFC broke into the side have had faith in him, would suggest that the moaners are clueless when it comes to judging a players worth to the team

And this is what we call the "straw man" argument.

 

[jay d]

Some people won't be satisfied with any player until we have a squad of all world cup winners win every game at least 5-0 and win the premier league without dropping a point while also winning the champions league. Given that all the managers at the club sine JFC broke into the side have had faith in him, would suggest that the moaners are clueless when it comes to judging a players worth to the team

No , some would mone about our style of play. And the manager not showinb enough passion.

 

[Easy 10]

When it comes to JFKs contribution to the team I admit to being completely clueless. Those that obviously no more than I, please enlighten me.

Famous for his shooting ?

 

[Bold Seagull]

I think Solly and JFC have both suffered this season under SH's tactical ineptitude and their games have gone backwards instead of becoming more decisive. The same could be said of Ince who has had a massive bounce since the arrival of Hughton.

Niether Solly or JFC appear to be able to shoot without finding the back of the stand, and both struggle with their decision making.

Right now, yes JFC is struggling, but I'd really like to see what Hughton can get out of him. Perhaps he will be a fringe player for the remainder of the season, but the talent is there, it's just whether this can be coached and developed into an effective Championship midfielder.

 

[yxee]

March's decision making isn't on the same level. People think of him last night and remember him running into 3 defenders, although there were no other options. What about the runs he made where he released the ball just before getting tackled? He is extremely dynamic, and you've got to concede that sometimes it will not come off. Complaining about that is like complaining about LuaLua's runs to the byline, which often fail but sometimes lead to a goal (or would have done, had a striker been there).

 

[JBenno]

Yes you can have a large minority - it is alot of people under half, or under the majority opinion

Once more than half or more than any other opinion - depending on whether you want a majority or an absolute majority - it turns from a large minority into a majority

Based on my experience of sitting in my seat at matches and listening, and viewing threads on here - something which I accept isn't scientific or precise - I would suggest a large minority of the vocal supporters are giving JFC abuse just like they did to Barnes. I count saying he shouldn't be on the pitch., should be subbed, saying JFC again at any mistake and saying he is league one - as football based abuse.

I would also add that he had Gardener running some interference taking some abuse for a while but his departure has intensified the attention on JFC.

Yes of course you are quite right.
Whether it is abuse or just merely opinions is questionable though.
I find the situation different from the Barnes one, much fewer people had those strong opinions about Barnes. (although, unfortunately they were the loud ones)
My opinion is that JFC is a great prospect. Neat and tidy, with correct technique. However, the situation we find ourselves in this season has not helped him. He suffers from being a bit 'jack of all trades, master of none from a midfielders point of you.
I want him to stay with us and develop for a long time, at the moment though I just think he is not the man for the gritty job that we have got ourselves into.
This is my opinion, not Jake's fault. Just how I see it. I certainly would not dream of abusing him from the terraces.

 

[Regency Gull]

Barnes - whilst at Brighton - brought the following to the team;

Goals
Assists
A proper shift, hard work
Good defensive ability from set pieces
Positional intelligence
An insane determination and will to win
Never shirked responsibility or "hid"

I'm not sure if JFC brings ANY of those.

Sentence two of my comparison gave the context for the comparison - it was in terms of the treatment he is getting from fans - nothing to do with what he can or can't do as a footballer

"JFC is the new Ashley Barnes

Everyone is slagging him and when he leaves they'll all realise that we miss him."

I would add to that your list on Barnes - and these were gathered from the fans around me

An inability to finish leading to numerous wasted chances, constantly out of position, a liability and about to be sent off at any moment.

I think it reached its nadir when someone told him in the warm up he shouldn't be on the pitch

 

[Bold Seagull]

March's decision making isn't on the same level. People think of him last night and remember him running into 3 defenders, although there were no other options. What about the runs he made where he released the ball just before getting tackled? He is extremely dynamic, and you've got to concede that sometimes it will not come off. Complaining about that is like complaining about LuaLua's runs to the byline, which often fail but sometimes lead to a goal (or would have done, had a striker been there).

My issue with March, is that in recent league games, he hasn't been dynamic, he hasn't been running at defenders. He's stopping, putting a foot on the ball and passing sideways. I completely agree with you, the March that runs at defenders, produces clever passes from nothing, leaves the opposing team guessing is exactly what we want. I haven't seen that Solly March much this season, or one that looks like finding the back of the net anytime soon.

I really like him, but he's not been that fleet footed creative youngster we know he can be lately.

 

[Herne Hill Seagull]

Some people won't be satisfied with any player until we have a squad of all world cup winners win every game at least 5-0 and win the premier league without dropping a point while also winning the champions league. Given that all the managers at the club sine JFC broke into the side have had faith in him, would suggest that the moaners are clueless when it comes to judging a players worth to the team

This can't be true if, as has also been claimed on this thread, we're too quick to forgive other players exactly the same sorts of mistakes - Ince was picked out as somebody who gets no stick when he errs, for example. We're too demanding and too forgiving? I don't think so. That only leaves 'we've taken a dislike to this bloke and therefore criticise him no matter what he does'. That's certainly not true either - I'd like nothing better than to see a kid come through the ranks, develop into a good player and wear the shirt for a long time, as we all would, and we have no reason to single any one of them out just for the sake of it.

So the likely truth is that, right or wrong, we're criticising honestly based on what we see. They're just opinions, earned by regular supporters, and as such can be expressed freely on this forum whether you regard them as 'clueless' or not. What I hear him (mainly) being criticised for is nothing to do with his ability, and everything to do with application, with which we do have a right to be dissatisfied with unless it's top notch. Anyone who's supported Brighton for any length of time knows the score, knows where we are in the grand scheme of things, so such a claim is absurd - I know we'll probably never win a major trophy in my lifetime, but it doesn't stop me going, and it does stop me expecting our players to be world beaters. So if I criticise is a player, it's pretty much exclusively anybody who never looks like he's 'leaving it all out there', to use the common saying.

 

[Rookie]

Barnes - whilst at Brighton - brought the following to the team;

Goals
Assists
A proper shift, hard work
Good defensive ability from set pieces
Positional intelligence
An insane determination and will to win
Never shirked responsibility or "hid"

I'm not sure if JFC brings ANY of those.

How about creating 37 chances this season or having a 83% pass accuracy. Compared to will Hughes (a player being scouted by the big boys) who has 87% pass accuracy and created 25 chances (all stats from squawka).
Do I think he could get closer to the front man when he plays as the 'no 10', yes. Could he do with a few games on the bench and be rotated in (like Hughes at Derby), yes. Do I think he will play top flight football, yes.

The abuse he gets in here is quite frankly ridiculous, he was up against a experienced midfield yesterday and had flamini tracking him.

 

[ken tiler]

Famous for his shooting ?

Ha! Perhaps a Freudian slip there?