Is Tony Bloom letting his heart rule his head over Sami?

[durrington gull]

To be fair, with Stephens, Crofts, March, CMS, Hughes, Bruno all fully fit, we would have a much stronger starting XI.

Not convinced with any of those players tbh - perhaps stephens? Solly would be sub maybe but cms, hughes, bruno & crofts are nothing special

 

[Pavilionaire]

Last 3 years Championship promotion-winning managers: Allardyce, McDermott, Adkins, Mackay, Bruce, Holloway, Dyche, Redknapp, Pearson.

All British, no bloody learning curve.

I know Bloom loves a foreigner but that's 0% success in 3 seasons compared with 100% success for tried and tested.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Not convinced with any of those players tbh - perhaps stephens? Solly would be sub maybe but cms, hughes, bruno & crofts are nothing special

March, Stephens, Crofts, CMS and Bruno all featured in our Play off achieving teams

 

[Bold Seagull]

Last 3 years Championship promotion-winning managers: Allardyce, McDermott, Adkins, Mackay, Bruce, Holloway, Dyche, Redknapp, Pearson.

Apart from those going up last season, only Allardyce and Bruce kept their jobs?



Interesting point though. Was the last foreign manager to get promoted from the Championship Roberto Di Matteo with West Brom in 2009-10?

 

[Acker79]

Last 3 years Championship promotion-winning managers: Allardyce, McDermott, Adkins, Mackay, Bruce, Holloway, Dyche, Redknapp, Pearson.

All British, no bloody learning curve.

I know Bloom loves a foreigner but that's 0% success in 3 seasons compared with 100% success for tried and tested.

Relegated managers from the last three seasons:

2013/14
Paul Dickov
Danny Wilson
Gary Johnson


2012/13
Darren Ferguson
Dean Saunders
Derek Mcinnes


2011/12
Michael Appleton
Andy Thorn
Dean Saunders

I know our fans would love to see a British manager, but that's 100% failure by Brits in charge of championship sides.

 

[Javeaseagull]

Is Tony Bloom letting his heart rule his head? Is this a serious question? You would ask this of someone known for years in poker circles as the Lizard i.e. cold blooded. People are seriously asking this question? Sheesh!

 

[Pavilionaire]

Apart from those going up last season, only Allardyce and Bruce kept their jobs?

What has that got to do with anything?? What the hell do Southampton care that they parted company with Adkins after a few matches, or Palace that they swapped Holloway for Pulis?

For Bloom it should be about getting promotion and fulfilling the dream, and for a bloke who should know all about odds and probability then he should realise having a British manager with Championship experience greatly increases your chances of promotion.

 

[Bold Seagull]

What has that got to do with anything?? What the hell do Southampton care that they parted company with Adkins after a few matches, or Palace that they swapped Holloway for Pulis?

For Bloom it should be about getting promotion and fulfilling the dream, and for a bloke who should know all about odds and probability then he should realise having a British manager with Championship experience greatly increases your chances of promotion.

But statistically there are only 5 foreign managers this season, not sure how many in previous seasons, but if it's only a handful then statistically you'd expect British managers to come out better given they are the majority?

Last season 2 of the top 6 were foreign managers, the season before 2 of the top 4 were foreign managers - that is a good success rate statistically at least.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Relegated managers from the last three seasons:

2013/14
Paul Dickov
Danny Wilson
Gary Johnson


2012/13
Darren Ferguson
Dean Saunders
Derek Mcinnes


2011/12
Michael Appleton
Andy Thorn
Dean Saunders

I know our fans would love to see a British manager, but that's 100% failure by Brits in charge of championship sides.

Meaningless. None of that lot have ever done anything meaningful in the Championship. What we're talking about is a British manager with some sort of pedigree. There's usually one or two about - right now there's Chris Hughton and I fancy now Symons has got the Fulham job he'd take the Brighton job if offered. I'm not saying he's the man, but that's the sort of guy we could bring in - a Championship with Newcastle, 4th with Birmingham, took Norwich to 11th in the Prem in 2012/13 and turning down Assistant Manager jobs because he wants to be the main man. That's where the bar should be for our manager now.

 

[Pavilionaire]

But statistically there are only 5 foreign managers this season, not sure how many in previous seasons, but if it's only a handful then statistically you'd expect British managers to come out better given they are the majority?

Last season 2 of the top 6 were foreign managers, the season before 2 of the top 4 were foreign managers - that is a good success rate statistically at least.

The Championship is a warzone and the season is long. Trying to play attractive football is laudable but in this division it's so hard to achieve. Clubs turn up wave after wave of 4-5-1 - strong, organised sides quick on the counter-attack. You have to get your system right, the players have to know their job and you can't gift goals to the opposition. The good British managers know how to do this and how to instill belief and hunger into their players. It really isn't a place for flair, sad though that may be.

 

[Miami Seagull]

Relegated managers from the last three seasons:

2013/14
Paul Dickov
Danny Wilson
Gary Johnson


2012/13
Darren Ferguson
Dean Saunders
Derek Mcinnes


2011/12
Michael Appleton
Andy Thorn
Dean Saunders

I know our fans would love to see a British manager, but that's 100% failure by Brits in charge of championship sides.

This is an interesting list. How many had managed successfully in the Championship before they were relegated? The promoted managers list on the other hand...

 

[Javeaseagull]

Sean Dyche is an excellent British manager. Err, that is all.

 

[Acker79]

Meaningless. None of that lot have ever done anything meaningful in the Championship. What we're talking about is a British manager with some sort of pedigree. There's usually one or two about - right now there's Chris Hughton and I fancy now Symons has got the Fulham job he'd take the Brighton job if offered. I'm not saying he's the man, but that's the sort of guy we could bring in - a Championship with Newcastle, 4th with Birmingham, took Norwich to 11th in the Prem in 2012/13 and turning down Assistant Manager jobs because he wants to be the main man. That's where the bar should be for our manager now.

When you put the emphasis on British managers with pedigree, pointing to the Britishness of those that were promoted, it's entirely relevant to point out the Britishness of the managers relegated.

Let's look at them in more depth, to check out what meaningful things these managers had done prior to joining the team they got promoted:

McDermott
Managed Slough and Woking before joing Reading as a scout. Took over from Rodgers in December 2009 (they weren't doing too bad being on a 15 game unbeaten at home run). Didn't get promoted until April 2012. He needed time to mould the team into a Promotion winning side, his first, and so far only Championship promotion, nothing meaningful in the Championship prior to joining/taking over Reading. Wasn't exactly running away with it when he went to leeds as a manger who had got a team promoted.

Adkins
Joined Scunthorpe in league one, got them into the championship, but relegated (then promoted there again). He got Southampton promoted from league one to the championship. He then got (a very expensive, very experienced, well fed by young academy talent) Southampton promoted, his first taste of success in the Championship. No previous Championship promotion experience. Are we looking at getting relegated from the championship as meaningful?

Mackay
Started at Watford where he was relegation threatened for a while before ending in Fourteenth place. That is the manager Cardiff hired when they brought him in and got promoted in his second season there, despite no meaningful experience.

Dyche
Joined watford as assistant and took over from Mackay. Took them to midtable. Burnley then took him on. His history was pretty much one mid-table season as manager before he joined Burnley, not exactly meaningful.

Pearson
First job was with Carlisle, where his big achievement was helping them avoid dropping into non-league. He had a few caretaker roles, before taking over at Southampton, where he scraped a result on the final day of the season to stay in the championship. He took over at Leicester in League one, where he got them promoted to the championship, did well, getting them to a play off final, which they lost, before leaving due to strained relationships with the owner. Joined Hull, where a poor start meant a great finish was still only good enough for mid table. He then rejoined Leicester. Play off final, I'd call that meaningful.


The following certainly had meaningful experience before their last experience, but let's also look at their experience prior to their first promotion from the Championship into the Premier League.

Allardyce
After managing Limerick head a bit of experience in the lower leagues with Preston, Blackpool, notts county, joined Bolton in League one, managed them to the championship, then to the premier league on the back of no previous meaningful experience in the championship.

Bruce
Started at Sheff Utd, quit after one year, Joined Huddersfield and despite early promise ended up mid table following season made a poor start and he quit, joined Wigan for two months taking them to play off final before quitting, joined Palace for a couple of months before quitting. That's the guy Birmingham appointed, and he with his history of tailing off and quitting got them promoted. I don't know what position Wigan were in when he took them to the play offs in his two month spell there, but I'll say that was meaningful.

Holloway
Starting in what is now league one, joined QPR and got them relegated from what is now the championship, got them abck up and to mid table before going on gardening leave, Joined plymouth, left them to join Leicester, they were relegated. This man with a championship pedigree of midtable and two relegations was who Blackpool hired. Midtable and two relegations meaningful?

Redknapp
Started in the bottom division with bournemouth got them up one rung for a while before they dropped down again. Joined West Ham as Billy Bond's assistant, after they had been promoted to the Prem, taking over when there was a threat he might go to Southampton. Eventually he left West Ham/was fired, went to Portsmouth, where he had no Championship experience, but had Premier league experience, and got them promoted. They would later become the first premier league team to enter administration after signing players that were better and more expensive than they could afford. But he got them promoted with his premier league experience, not with meaningful championship experience.



Look, I'm not saying experience counts for nothing. I'm not saying we should only look at foreign managers.

I'm saying every manager who has got promoted from the championship has at some point in his career joined a side without having experience of getting a championship team promoted.

I'm saying that managers like Adkins, McDermott, Holloway, who do have experience of getting a team promoted from the championship are no guarantee of promotion, either.

I'm saying British managers greatly outnumber foreign managers in the Championship now and its history, so of course most promoted teams have British managers, as do the relegated ones. It's not a surprising statistic, and the Britishness of relegated managers is as relevant as the Britishness of promoted managers.

I'm saying only looking at experienced, British managers is as short sighted as only looking at up and coming foreigners.

And I suppose I'm also saying that Sami struggling at the wrong end so far this season doesn't mean he can't turn it around and have a truly successful season either this one or next, since some of the managers above only managed promotion after an extended run with the club. (Note: I'm not saying he will turn it around, or that we should stick with him etc. just that I believe there is a possibility he could turn it around, he might not, but he might).

 

[Tubby-McFat-Fuc]

Last 3 years Championship promotion-winning managers: Allardyce, McDermott, Adkins, Mackay, Bruce, Holloway, Dyche, Redknapp, Pearson.

All British, no bloody learning curve.

I know Bloom loves a foreigner but that's 0% success in 3 seasons compared with 100% success for tried and tested.

I can see your point, but personally I couldn't give a crap if a manager British, Irish, Indian or Chinesse. (draw the line at a yank)

All I would want is someone with a proven track record, knows the Division, and has the ability to match tactics to the players he has.

Fail to understand how Tony Bloom has put together this crack squad of top class business men to run the club and the Amex ( I know some like to bash Burke and Barber, but they are amongst the best at what they do), yet the most important position at the club to get the punters through the door, he keeps giving to inexperienced managers with no knowledge of the Division. Agree or disagree, fact is attendences are tumbling this season, and its blind hope to think those who buy tickets this season, will renew them next season and stay away. Its not going to happen is it.

Would a top businessman like BLoom put a CEO in Barbers position who only had a few months experience in the job and hoped he'd pick it up quickly, because that is exactly what he has done with the manager of the team.

 

[Ernest]

I can see your point, but personally I couldn't give a crap if a manager British, Irish, Indian or Chinesse. (draw the line at a yank)

All I would want is someone with a proven track record, knows the Division, and has the ability to match tactics to the players he has.

Fail to understand how Tony Bloom has put together this crack squad of top class business men to run the club and the Amex ( I know some like to bash Burke and Barber, but they are amongst the best at what they do), yet the most important position at the club to get the punters through the door, he keeps giving to inexperienced managers with no knowledge of the Division.

Would a top businessman like BLoom put a CEO in Barbers position who only had a few months experience in the job and hoped he'd pick it up quickly, because that is exactly what he has done with the manager of the team.

Nobody with any sense can argue with that

 

[Pavilionaire]

Acker, I appreciate the facts you've recounted but you're missing the point. When you've got the infrastructure right and the squad has reached the play-offs two seasons in a row it's a hell of a risk bringing in someone like Hyypia with no British managerial experience. On the other hand, someone like Hughton is midtable at worst and will probably have you in the promotion mix all season.

 

[AZ Gull]

Would a top businessman like BLoom put a CEO in Barbers position who only had a few months experience in the job and hoped he'd pick it up quickly, because that is exactly what he has done with the manager of the team.

Poyet had NO previous experience as a number one, anywhere.

 

[Mutts Nuts]

Tony Bloom is a very very clever business man, but because he is stinking rich, that doesn't mean his football knowledge compares to his fortune.

Unfortunately I think he is letting his heart rule his head on this issue.

THe chairman has once again stated he thinks the squad is capable of the play offs, so that leaves one set of people to blame for the current position.

Not one Sami Hyypia supporter can deny his side is driving away supporters in their thousands.

If this continues, we could be down 10,000 fans next season (fans who buy tickets and not turning up now, will not continue to buy tickets and not turn up next season), say spending an average of £30 a game over a 23 game home season, thats close of £7m in lost revenue.

Let just hope with the new FFP limits, Tony Bloom will make up that short fall, although I'd rather he change the manager now with someone experienced at this level, and if we don't go up this season (still think we can make the play offs with the right man in charge of the team), we can potentially have the lost fans, and Blooms money in the kitty. I think with an experienced manager in charge, this squad can make the play offs.

The Manager is not at fault, we have a division one squad and will soon be in that division

 

[Rugrat]

Don't know about heart ruling head but I've known many good businessmen who have a complete blind spot when it comes to acknowledging they've made a bad hire. They can abjectly refuse to admit they might have made a mistake and generally defend their decisions with such things as "needs more time to settle in to the environment"

Often the problem is the mess they leave behind when they eventually do go, and the time and cost to get that part of the business back in good shape again. I'm currently in a business just like that.

I'm not sure if TB really has faith that SH will turn it around or not, but using "TB is a good businessman" as logic that he knows what he's doing, might be misguided

 

[matt]

When you put the emphasis on British managers with pedigree, pointing to the Britishness of those that were promoted, it's entirely relevant to point out the Britishness of the managers relegated.

Let's look at them in more depth, to check out what meaningful things these managers had done prior to joining the team they got promoted:

McDermott
Managed Slough and Woking before joing Reading as a scout. Took over from Rodgers in December 2009 (they weren't doing too bad being on a 15 game unbeaten at home run). Didn't get promoted until April 2012. He needed time to mould the team into a Promotion winning side, his first, and so far only Championship promotion, nothing meaningful in the Championship prior to joining/taking over Reading. Wasn't exactly running away with it when he went to leeds as a manger who had got a team promoted.

Adkins
Joined Scunthorpe in league one, got them into the championship, but relegated (then promoted there again). He got Southampton promoted from league one to the championship. He then got (a very expensive, very experienced, well fed by young academy talent) Southampton promoted, his first taste of success in the Championship. No previous Championship promotion experience. Are we looking at getting relegated from the championship as meaningful?

Mackay
Started at Watford where he was relegation threatened for a while before ending in Fourteenth place. That is the manager Cardiff hired when they brought him in and got promoted in his second season there, despite no meaningful experience.

Dyche
Joined watford as assistant and took over from Mackay. Took them to midtable. Burnley then took him on. His history was pretty much one mid-table season as manager before he joined Burnley, not exactly meaningful.

Pearson
First job was with Carlisle, where his big achievement was helping them avoid dropping into non-league. He had a few caretaker roles, before taking over at Southampton, where he scraped a result on the final day of the season to stay in the championship. He took over at Leicester in League one, where he got them promoted to the championship, did well, getting them to a play off final, which they lost, before leaving due to strained relationships with the owner. Joined Hull, where a poor start meant a great finish was still only good enough for mid table. He then rejoined Leicester. Play off final, I'd call that meaningful.


The following certainly had meaningful experience before their last experience, but let's also look at their experience prior to their first promotion from the Championship into the Premier League.

Allardyce
After managing Limerick head a bit of experience in the lower leagues with Preston, Blackpool, notts county, joined Bolton in League one, managed them to the championship, then to the premier league on the back of no previous meaningful experience in the championship.

Bruce
Started at Sheff Utd, quit after one year, Joined Huddersfield and despite early promise ended up mid table following season made a poor start and he quit, joined Wigan for two months taking them to play off final before quitting, joined Palace for a couple of months before quitting. That's the guy Birmingham appointed, and he with his history of tailing off and quitting got them promoted. I don't know what position Wigan were in when he took them to the play offs in his two month spell there, but I'll say that was meaningful.

Holloway
Starting in what is now league one, joined QPR and got them relegated from what is now the championship, got them abck up and to mid table before going on gardening leave, Joined plymouth, left them to join Leicester, they were relegated. This man with a championship pedigree of midtable and two relegations was who Blackpool hired. Midtable and two relegations meaningful?

Redknapp
Started in the bottom division with bournemouth got them up one rung for a while before they dropped down again. Joined West Ham as Billy Bond's assistant, after they had been promoted to the Prem, taking over when there was a threat he might go to Southampton. Eventually he left West Ham/was fired, went to Portsmouth, where he had no Championship experience, but had Premier league experience, and got them promoted. They would later become the first premier league team to enter administration after signing players that were better and more expensive than they could afford. But he got them promoted with his premier league experience, not with meaningful championship experience.



Look, I'm not saying experience counts for nothing. I'm not saying we should only look at foreign managers.

I'm saying every manager who has got promoted from the championship has at some point in his career joined a side without having experience of getting a championship team promoted.

I'm saying that managers like Adkins, McDermott, Holloway, who do have experience of getting a team promoted from the championship are no guarantee of promotion, either.

I'm saying British managers greatly outnumber foreign managers in the Championship now and its history, so of course most promoted teams have British managers, as do the relegated ones. It's not a surprising statistic, and the Britishness of relegated managers is as relevant as the Britishness of promoted managers.

I'm saying only looking at experienced, British managers is as short sighted as only looking at up and coming foreigners.

And I suppose I'm also saying that Sami struggling at the wrong end so far this season doesn't mean he can't turn it around and have a truly successful season either this one or next, since some of the managers above only managed promotion after an extended run with the club. (Note: I'm not saying he will turn it around, or that we should stick with him etc. just that I believe there is a possibility he could turn it around, he might not, but he might).

So basically they were mostly a bit shit in their first managerial job in the Football League.