Frankel v black caviar

[Tyrone Biggums]

Was he the greatest ever sprinter?

Who says he's the greatest sprinter?

He very well may be the greatest horse though because he could do it at both ends of the distance scale.

He proved he had the ability to win over all distances and not be a one trick pony (pardon the pun).

 

[rippleman]

Frankel -v- Black Cavier

Some rather "odd" comments on this thread!

I think we can agree that all racehorses have their "optimum distance"; Frankel's is a mile and BC's is 6f. If they were ever going to race against each other (which they wont) it would have to be over 7F (a distance both horses have won over in the past). This would test Frankel's sprint speed against BC's staying power.

I'm not sure you can judge too much by their style of running. BC is a very relaxed 6yo mare and Frankel is a very excitable (and in equine terms, slightly eccentric) 4 yo colt. Frankel has to be kept up to his work and ridden out or he may idle, lose interest etc. I presume by the way she was ridden at Ascot and in two of her races in Australia that I have seen that BC doesn't respond well to the whip and has to be ridden "hands and heels".

I dont understand why the traveling distance should be an excuse; hasn't stopped European horses winning the Melbourne Cup in the past has it?

The quality of the opposition is a somewhat unreliable indicator. There is no doubt that both horses will have scared away potential opposition in their races.

We can only speculate whether BC would have won further / easier if she had been ridden by a decent jockey at Ascot. For most of her wins in Aus any of us probably could have sat on her and won but up against good (not exceptional) opposition on a strange track she needed a jockey who could judge pace, understood the track and if necessary ride out a finish.

I am totally bemused why BC's jockey didn't have a handful of rides at Ascot during the week to get used to riding the track. (Maybe no owners wanted him up and after he - the jockey- nearly lost her the race I wouldnt want him riding my horses either!). I totally agree that we would almost certainly have seen a better performance from BC on Saturday if she had one of our top jockeys riding her.

I commend BC's owners for bringing her over here and I'm glad they were rewarded with a win.

I believe that the only time we will see BC v Frankel will be in a virtual race once all the stats, times, going, courses etc etc are factored in. Then we can all argue over that!

Racing, as ever, is a matter of opinions. And my opinion doesn't matter. But if it did, I would take Frankel to beat BC over 7f on any course anywhere in the world on any going. But an opinion is all it will ever be...because sadly, we aint ever going to see it.

 

[sydney]

Some rather "odd" comments on this thread!

I think we can agree that all racehorses have their "optimum distance"; Frankel's is a mile and BC's is 6f. If they were ever going to race against each other (which they wont) it would have to be over 7F (a distance both horses have won over in the past). This would test Frankel's sprint speed against BC's staying power.

I'm not sure you can judge too much by their style of running. BC is a very relaxed 6yo mare and Frankel is a very excitable (and in equine terms, slightly eccentric) 4 yo colt. Frankel has to be kept up to his work and ridden out or he may idle, lose interest etc. I presume by the way she was ridden at Ascot and in two of her races in Australia that I have seen that BC doesn't respond well to the whip and has to be ridden "hands and heels".

I dont understand why the traveling distance should be an excuse; hasn't stopped European horses winning the Melbourne Cup in the past has it?

The quality of the opposition is a somewhat unreliable indicator. There is no doubt that both horses will have scared away potential opposition in their races.

We can only speculate whether BC would have won further / easier if she had been ridden by a decent jockey at Ascot. For most of her wins in Aus any of us probably could have sat on her and won but up against good (not exceptional) opposition on a strange track she needed a jockey who could judge pace, understood the track and if necessary ride out a finish.

I am totally bemused why BC's jockey didn't have a handful of rides at Ascot during the week to get used to riding the track. (Maybe no owners wanted him up and after he - the jockey- nearly lost her the race I wouldnt want him riding my horses either!). I totally agree that we would almost certainly have seen a better performance from BC on Saturday if she had one of our top jockeys riding her.

I commend BC's owners for bringing her over here and I'm glad they were rewarded with a win.

I believe that the only time we will see BC v Frankel will be in a virtual race once all the stats, times, going, courses etc etc are factored in. Then we can all argue over that!

Racing, as ever, is a matter of opinions. And my opinion doesn't matter. But if it did, I would take Frankel to beat BC over 7f on any course anywhere in the world on any going. But an opinion is all it will ever be...because sadly, we aint ever going to see it.

i love you ...

 

[piersa]

Did all 3 of your brain cells contribute to that piss weak retort?

Thought that might hit a raw nerve...............oh hang on there's you shadow, go and have an argument.

 

[sydney]

i will just add that you didn't see black caviar at her best by a long way .....you can believe that if you like, it's the truth........as a lot of you "experts" said on this thread she had 2 weeks to get over the flight , well maybe that wasn't enough , she certainly didn't run how she can and her trainer and jockey have both confirmed that , taking nothing away from frankel .......he looks like a one in a million animal.....don't really think this should degenerate into an ozzie/euro slagging match.....we have had a few winners over there ,you have had a few winners over here , end of day , thoroughbread racing is a great sport involving beautiful animals and psychotic midgets......i love it.

 

[Triggaaar]

Who says he's the greatest sprinter?

No one, I asked the question following this comment: 'Red Rum won over 5f and 36f.....surely he is the best?' to point out that using your requirements, not even Red Rum could have been considered the best at the time.

He very well may be the greatest horse though because he could do it at both ends of the distance scale.

Could do what? He could win a race, but he couldn't beat all at all distances, which is what you've said is required.

Anyway, this thread isn't for you, it's about comparing two horses and discussing which ones best.

 

[Questions]

Ah good old Phar Lap. Just had a good read up on him. Interesting stuff. Survived an attempt on his life by some gangsters on the morning of The Melbourne Cup and died in mysterious circumstances when he may have been poisoned by some other hoodlums some time later.
Goodness knows what old Henry Cecil would have made of it all.

 

[Martinf]

Love the way some of the Aus mob have been trying to turn this into a 'smash the Poms, our horse is the best in the world, better than the Poms' blah blah blah. Absolutely cringeworthy.

 

[danwa08]

TB full of Aussie bollox. Put it to bed now.

 

[keithbeaky]

Who says he's the greatest sprinter?

He very well may be the greatest horse though because he could do it at both ends of the distance scale.

He proved he had the ability to win over all distances and not be a one trick pony (pardon the pun).

That shows just how clueless you are. Red Rum dead heated in an AWFUL 2yo seller over 5f under the greatest jockey ever. He wouldn't have won over 5f in an average race. So how does winning a non event coupled with the Grand National make you potentially the greatest? The three Nationals hold far more prestige and credit. A seller adds nothing to a horses greatness. Frankel would win a seller over 5f and 2m. Which would prove NOTHING. A horse bred and shaping like a national horse at 2yo now would NEVER run over 5f or as a 2yo at all. They would be put away till 4yo and in some cases 5.

I've actually come to the conclusion you're fishing as no-one can really be this far off. So well played, you got me.

 

[Mackenzie]

That shows just how clueless you are. Red Rum dead heated in an AWFUL 2yo seller over 5f under the greatest jockey ever. He wouldn't have won over 5f in an average race. So how does winning a non event coupled with the Grand National make you potentially the greatest? The three Nationals hold far more prestige and credit. A seller adds nothing to a horses greatness. Frankel would win a seller over 5f and 2m. Which would prove NOTHING. A horse bred and shaping like a national horse at 2yo now would NEVER run over 5f or as a 2yo at all. They would be put away till 4yo and in some cases 5.

I've actually come to the conclusion you're fishing as no-one can really be this far off. So well played, you got me.

Scobie Breasley?