B.W.
New member
- Jul 5, 2003
- 13,666
That, to me, is the key point. I am genuinely surprised none of the other Prem basement teams have made a bid for Liam YET.
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Connor Wickham
- Thread starter Neecha
- Start date
That, to me, is the key point. I am genuinely surprised none of the other Prem basement teams have made a bid for Liam YET.
Hotchilidog
Well-known member
- Jan 24, 2009
- 8,718
If we sign Wickham (and we should aim for permanent rather than loan) then I think we will play two forwards. We haven't done so, so far, as we have not had two fit out and out strikers available to do so. If you have the quality players, you play them. If you want to get promoted you need to have more than two in your squad. A forward choice of Leo, CMS, Wickham with Obika and Hoskins behind them gives Oscar a tremendous amount of options plus the necessary depth to mount a sustained push for the premier league. Our midfield is pretty tough these days and I think there is room for two up front.
Justice
Dangerous Idiot
Another 20 pages on a player we wont sign.
brightonrock
Dodgy Hamstrings
- Jan 1, 2008
- 2,482
Did anyone go to the u21s game v Austria, or seen him this season? Wickham is a perfect combination of CMS and Ulloa - big, strong and good in the air; but also has a great turn of pace. He is young and not the finished product yet but a far more ROUNDED forward than our other options. He can play off Ulloa in a channel quite comfortably, which is what Buckley/Lopez/LuaLua have been doing all season - a fact that seems to have escaped 90% of NSC. Surely I'm not the only person who's noticed Buckley has rarely been out wide this year? At home we no longer play "just one up top" (although we do away).
Cattermole was taken off and Wickham came on when Sunderland visited last. The game then went Albion's way. GP will be well aware of this.
B.W.
New member
- Jul 5, 2003
- 13,666
I have to agree with you re our particular 4-3-3, hence why I'm excited by CMS's return. I really don't know whether Wickham can play off of, left, or right, of Leo tho'. Pleased to hear someone thinks he might be able to do so.
B.W.
New member
- Jul 5, 2003
- 13,666
I'm not sure Gus or the Albion will make their decision based on part of one game!
Farehamseagull
Solly March Fan Club
Agreed, Wickham is better than Leo as well as being considerably younger.
I'm maybe at an advantage here because my best mate is an Ipswich fan and I have seen quite a few of their games in recent years. I have therefore watched quite a lot of Wickham and taken quite an interest in his career and I do think a lot of people on here are under estimating how good he is.
It hasn't worked out for him at Sunderland, which is not that surprising really considering the managerial chaos there in recent years, but he is an outstanding Championship striker and I'm certain he will be a successful Premier league striker when he gets the chance.
And he is only 20.
darters74
New member
No brainer this, get him in Oscar!
mejonaNO12 aka riskit
Well-known member
I'm suprised the amount of people who don't think the loan deal is a good idea.
Let's be brutally honest here. If we wanted to buy Wickham we would have to give them bridcutt and PAY them. Bridcutt would be the makeweight in the deal. Even Bridcutt+Buckley for Wickham in a straight swap would be phenomenal if we didnt pay a penny.
So this option of a loan is completely understandable if Sunderland are falling ever so slightly short of the Liam price.
Let's be clear. It's not going to be that Sunderland are going to be £1m+ short of Liams price and we settle for a loan deal for Wickham as a difference write off. Especially when we will no doubt have to pay some of his wages. The option of Wickham will be to finalise a deal in which both parties are relatively close in terms of value but can't quite agree 100%.
It may even be as small as a disagreement over the structured payments for the deal. Perhaps we've said "OK. We'll accept your structured payments which sees us receive less up front immediately but we'll take Wickham until the end of the season as a compromise".
Again, all guess work obviously.
Let's be brutally honest here. If we wanted to buy Wickham we would have to give them bridcutt and PAY them. Bridcutt would be the makeweight in the deal. Even Bridcutt+Buckley for Wickham in a straight swap would be phenomenal if we didnt pay a penny.
So this option of a loan is completely understandable if Sunderland are falling ever so slightly short of the Liam price.
Let's be clear. It's not going to be that Sunderland are going to be £1m+ short of Liams price and we settle for a loan deal for Wickham as a difference write off. Especially when we will no doubt have to pay some of his wages. The option of Wickham will be to finalise a deal in which both parties are relatively close in terms of value but can't quite agree 100%.
It may even be as small as a disagreement over the structured payments for the deal. Perhaps we've said "OK. We'll accept your structured payments which sees us receive less up front immediately but we'll take Wickham until the end of the season as a compromise".
Again, all guess work obviously.
Justice
Dangerous Idiot
To slow and rarely scores good championship player.
Marshy
Well-known member
Do you agree that Wickham will only come on loan if he is a starter ?... and if we take him on loan or buy he must be seen as that ?
Therefore I pressume you are happy that Leo will be on the bench, which I am pretty sure will mean he leaves in the summer.
You are assuming we will continue to play one up front. I don't think that's necessarily the case if we have Ulloa AND Wickham here.
Leo signed a FOUR and a half year deal. He'll only 'leave in the summer' if WE want him to.
Marshy
Well-known member
Maybe, but nothing indcates a shift in team formation. A system that is working very well, and has done for the last 3 years.
Wickham will only come on loan if he is guaranteed a start, and that for me finishes the career of Ulloa with us.
Machiavelli
Well-known member
I think something might be happening with Wickham and Bridcutt (and also maybe Buckley), purely based on the newspaper reports, and developments (Wickham's recall, Bridcutt's mind, Buckley's injury). There are two key issues that have been raised, alongside my thoughts on them:
1. loan/purchase of Wickham? It might actually be better if we got him on a loan for the rest of the season. His contract with Sunderland is out in the summer of 2015, and Gus obviously doesn't rate him for this season at the very least. If we could get him on loan, we can find out how good he is, how he fits in to our style of play, and we'll also know about what league we'll be in, what we need, and how to plan for the following season. If he comes on loan and succeeds, we might be in the Premier League next season or, alternatively, Wickham might think that we're key contenders for promotion in the following season. This, combined with Oscar's coaching nous, big crowds, and Wickham's familiarity with our new training facilities might make him favourites to sign him. If he comes and he fails, then we don't have to go with him. I'm not so sure that I buy the re-sale thing with him, because as many have pointed out, his wages are just too high for the club at the moment.
2. where would he play? There are two, possibly three, options here:
i, as the central striker, perhaps alternating with Ulloa both between and within games; this doesn't mean that he can't play in one of the other two positions when he's not playing in this position. In earlier games this season also, Ulloa did a fair bit of defensive work while leaving someone else up-front as the spearhead probably in recognition of his lack of pace, alongside his capability at defensive duties. In other words, there might be the facility for Ulloa and Wickham to both start, and alternate playing up front according to what's actually going on in the game at that time.
ii, out wide, as brightonrock has indicated Oscar plays a strange formation in which the wide players do not hug the touchline. Oscar likes to use right-footed players on the left-side, and vice-versa, and likes fluidity within the system. Given this, and also spending some time in the first of these options, this might act as an incentive for him to come.
iii, as an attacking midfield player. This is the least likely of the three options, but he might fancy it. We could do with a goalscoring attacking midfield player in our system.
One thing to rule out is the fantasy of so many on NSC, which is playing a 4-4-2. Oscar will not do it, whatever you want. For what it's worth, I think he's right to do so, although do see 2ii on this.
1. loan/purchase of Wickham? It might actually be better if we got him on a loan for the rest of the season. His contract with Sunderland is out in the summer of 2015, and Gus obviously doesn't rate him for this season at the very least. If we could get him on loan, we can find out how good he is, how he fits in to our style of play, and we'll also know about what league we'll be in, what we need, and how to plan for the following season. If he comes on loan and succeeds, we might be in the Premier League next season or, alternatively, Wickham might think that we're key contenders for promotion in the following season. This, combined with Oscar's coaching nous, big crowds, and Wickham's familiarity with our new training facilities might make him favourites to sign him. If he comes and he fails, then we don't have to go with him. I'm not so sure that I buy the re-sale thing with him, because as many have pointed out, his wages are just too high for the club at the moment.
2. where would he play? There are two, possibly three, options here:
i, as the central striker, perhaps alternating with Ulloa both between and within games; this doesn't mean that he can't play in one of the other two positions when he's not playing in this position. In earlier games this season also, Ulloa did a fair bit of defensive work while leaving someone else up-front as the spearhead probably in recognition of his lack of pace, alongside his capability at defensive duties. In other words, there might be the facility for Ulloa and Wickham to both start, and alternate playing up front according to what's actually going on in the game at that time.
ii, out wide, as brightonrock has indicated Oscar plays a strange formation in which the wide players do not hug the touchline. Oscar likes to use right-footed players on the left-side, and vice-versa, and likes fluidity within the system. Given this, and also spending some time in the first of these options, this might act as an incentive for him to come.
iii, as an attacking midfield player. This is the least likely of the three options, but he might fancy it. We could do with a goalscoring attacking midfield player in our system.
One thing to rule out is the fantasy of so many on NSC, which is playing a 4-4-2. Oscar will not do it, whatever you want. For what it's worth, I think he's right to do so, although do see 2ii on this.
glasfryn
cleaning up cat sick
two big C/F's who know where the back of the net is and one of them very fast and young
no brainer
Marshy
Well-known member
Ofcourse he would only leave if the price was right and we wanted him too.
But you can pretty much guarantee that If Leo is not a regular starting 11 player he will not be with us for very long.
You only have to look at how pissed of he was to come of with 20 mins to go at the last home game to know that not being in the starting 11 would mean big big trouble.
As I said earlier, bringing Wickham in either on loan or buying will mean the end of Ulloa with us in my opinion.
brightn'ove
cringe
Spot on.
The lad is strong, tall, powerful and very pacey. If he played the 'out wide' Barnes role he would be very good at it. I have no idea what his defensive abilities are like but he is young and can learn these things. I think Wickham would be a fantastic signing, he is a very good prospect and is the type of payer we need to sign.
Machiavelli
Well-known member
I am assuming that. Why are you assuming that we won't, other than nostalgia?
It's quite simple: most teams play some variant on 4-3-3, whether that be 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1 (the most favoured variant at present), or some other system. Barcelona have forged their identity with that system. Oscar is steeped in that system. Read his interviews, he always talks about there being one philosophy. Key components of that philosophy are high technical ability, possession football, and a 4-3-3 system (with innovative tweakings to fit in with personnel, such as Messi playing the false number nine role).
Two other things. The most intelligent journalist on football I've come across is Jonathan Wilson, who writes for The Guardian; he writes about systems, and is well worth reading. Secondly, it will be interesting to see what happens with systems in the World Cup, as big one-off tournaments like this is where evolution within systems usually takes place.