* The official Keep Britain in the EU thread *

melias shoes · Dec 22, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
Why?

You are suggesting the financial standing of London is down to Britain being in the EU. London has always been powerful as a trading centre and the fact we are in the EU is nothing to clutch at HT.

Herr Tubthumper · Dec 22, 2015

melias shoes said:
You are suggesting the financial standing of London is down to Britain being in the EU. London has always been powerful as a trading centre and the fact we are in the EU is nothing to clutch at HT.

Of course the London has always been a big player. But it benefits enormously from being in the EU. In fact don't listen to me listen to the bankers themselves:

"A 2013 survey by TheCityUK, a bank lobby group, found that 84 percent of finance industry leaders want the U.K. to remain a member of the EU" and Michael Sherwood, a vice chairman of Goldman Sachs Group Inc. says "“We want the U.K. to stay in Europe, the U.K. leaving the EU would lead to some sort of fragmentation of our business. The City would definitely be impacted.”

"Over the past 15 years 250 foreign-owned banks in the City, have consolidated its European operations in London to take advantage of the EU’s $16.6 trillion–a-year single market, Bloomberg Markets magazine reports in its May issue. Wide-open access to that market is now in doubt"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ks-opposing-britain-exit-from-eu-see-u-k-loss

beorhthelm · Dec 22, 2015

melias shoes said:
You are suggesting the financial standing of London is down to Britain being in the EU. London has always been powerful as a trading centre and the fact we are in the EU is nothing to clutch at HT.

absolutely. London's standing in finance comes from literally centuries of leading trade and finance, despite the rise of US and Germany and the waning of the UK as nations. its based on support services around banking finance, the accountancy, insurance legal people, underpinned by a legal system that people believe is more equitable and understandable. companies get set up in London who do little or no trade in the EU, because its where expertise lives and want to live. Like people do the similar in Singapore or New York, despite them not being in the EU. European banks setup extensive operations here too, despite already being based within the EU. despite this, we are told it will all end if we leave the EU, like it would all end if we didn't join the Euro. maybe it will change if we left, maybe some to the detriment, maybe some to the benefit. at least we'd be in our hands, rather than being told that we must impose rule x because it suits a bureaucrat in Brussels, which no one actually wants or agrees with.

JC Footy Genius · Dec 22, 2015

Britain needs to get a better deal from Brussels or leave the European Union, major new study argues

A group of business leaders and analysts have published a 1000-page assessment of Britain’s place in the EU and the changes needed

The study, entitled Change, or Go, is the most detailed, fact based report produced to date on the UK's membership of the EU, and the alternatives on offer. It sets out ten major reforms that it suggests Mr Cameron must seek from EU leaders before the in-out referendum he has pledged to hold by the end of 2017.

The report will be seen as a key moment in the intensifying debate on the UK's future in the EU. It questions some of the central arguments made for EU membership, especially the claim that being inside is good for British businesses.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-or-leave-the-EU-major-new-study-reveals.html

The full report can be accessed here http://forbritain.org/cogwholebook.pdf

Triggaaar · Dec 22, 2015

cunning fergus said:
You may be right, however past performance by EU and pro-EU national leaders does not indicate you are.

France and Holland rejected the European Constitution, and it came back as the Lisbon Treaty which was the European constitution in all but name.

Labour promised a referedum on it, Mandelson said it was a tidying up exercise and Brown was so embarrased to sign it he did it after the grand signing with other heads of state.

So that tells us that if our leaders want to stay on the train, they won't give us the vote. As we trundle along, the destination will one day become clear. Do you think our leaders (whoever they are when the time comes) will want to be part of the US of E, with no power at all?

if that doesnt convince you the simple reality is that regardless of the outcome of our forthcoming referendum the EU as we know it now is going to change profundly.

It will be introducing a federal structure for the Eurozone countries in order to cope with the Euro crisis and therefore the policy decisions that this group will make will create a de-facto 2 speed Europe with the UK on the outside, with even less influence than we have now.

I don't disagree. I think Farage is roughly right in his speeches, we're not really welcome in Europe, other than to pick up the bill.

This new EU structure will mean the next referendum will be on the UK joining the euro.....................being outside the euro and in the EU will be prove the maxim that you cant be a little bit pregnant.

The Euro isn't working, I don't think we'd join without a referendum (you seem to agree) and we'd all vote to stay out. I agree it's a problem. I'd like to keep our currency (for economical reasons, not nostalgia) and I'd like us to be part of the EU, but not the EU that exists today.

Those voting in, shouldnt do so unless they want the UK to join the euro, that is the logical next step even though our politicans wont say it is.

But you just said 'the next referendum will be on the UK joining the euro' - did you mean the forthcoming referendum?

Hampster Gull · Dec 22, 2015

melias shoes said:
Sorry HG you're deluded if you think this.

Youre right MS, i was too nuanced, i meant it ironically

melias shoes · Dec 22, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
Of course the London has always been a big player. But it benefits enormously from being in the EU. In fact don't listen to me listen to the bankers themselves:

"A 2013 survey by TheCityUK, a bank lobby group, found that 84 percent of finance industry leaders want the U.K. to remain a member of the EU" and Michael Sherwood, a vice chairman of Goldman Sachs Group Inc. says "“We want the U.K. to stay in Europe, the U.K. leaving the EU would lead to some sort of fragmentation of our business. The City would definitely be impacted.”

"Over the past 15 years 250 foreign-owned banks in the City, have consolidated its European operations in London to take advantage of the EU’s $16.6 trillion–a-year single market, Bloomberg Markets magazine reports in its May issue. Wide-open access to that market is now in doubt"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ks-opposing-britain-exit-from-eu-see-u-k-loss

I could google too you know.

alfredmizen · Dec 22, 2015

Simster said:
I didn't mention concessions, I was talking about his negotiation skills. He's very pro EU and thus didn't see the need. In fairness, you have to remember the mood was very different back then in the buoyant economic years, before the sub prime market collapse, the unravelling of the Euro, and before the doors were opened to waves of East Europeans.

But his negotiation skills were always excellent. You might not agree, but most would say that Northern Ireland he negotiated a peace settlement through the most difficult of waters. I'm not expecting you to agree with me as I know how you feel about Blair but I think the point stands with regard to his negotiations.

i dont agree with you but see your point.

alfredmizen · Dec 22, 2015

Soulman said:
This point is spot on. I have worked with thousands from Eastern Europe that adopt this stance. I have not run down these Eastern Europeans, they are generally nice people, but openly admit that their goal is to work as many hours as possible, not bothered about the rate as it is much much more than they can earn at home.
They are prepared to live many to a property because it is just a place to sleep and cheap.
Many are buying property/properties at home and their disposable income is not spent here. You can't blame them working our system.
The downside is that properties for our citizens are are fewer and so the price to buy/rent is very high, and of course the wages are lower.
Two people renting a one or two bed flat can not afford to but 7/8 Eastern Europeans all working can easily afford.
Doubt me if you like, but i have worked with over 100 Eastern Europeans in the last 6 months and believe it or not we do talk and discuss.
By the way, many work for a year, go home for 3 months, getting all their tax back, get OUR dole money for the 3 months...........then come back again.

exactly, but undoubtedly this will be dismissed as anecdotal and without basis in STATISTICS.

alfredmizen · Dec 22, 2015

Simster said:
Why is it nonsense?

Because London was THE financial capital of the world before the EU was even thought of.

Triggaaar · Dec 22, 2015

El Presidente said:
As someone who works at the BBC on a regular basis, Auntie has many flaws, but it is not institutionally biased. Nick Robinson, the chief political reporter in this year's election, is a former Young Conservative leader, Nigel Farage has appeared on Question Time more than any other politician in the last five years, Jeremy Paxman did apply once to be the editor of Labour supporting The New Statesman.

It appears to me, that whatever your political leanings, giving the BBC a kicking seems to be the in thing from all areas of the political spectrum precisely because it is independent, unlike the Express, from which you take your article.

Is it 'liberal' in the sense that is supports the arts, women, minorities and so on. Absolutely. Does it screw up on occasions? Yes it does, the Newsnight Jimmy Savile issue is a prime example of a producer flexing their muscles when they should not have done so. The BBC is also pretty fair in being willing to give a right of reply, unlike many of its print based critics.

The BBC is an easy target, it's funding is a historical anachronism, but it does still attempt to apply the Reithian edict of 'Inform, Educate and Entertain' to a far greater degree than any other broadcaster IMO, unless you think that someone else does a better job?

El Presidente said:
Isn't bias in the eye of the beholder though? It's a bit like referees at the Amex, those that give us decisions are good, those that give decisions against us are biased cheats.

It is true that many Scottish voters think that the BBC were completely biased in their reporting during the independence campaign.

dingodan · Dec 22, 2015

El Presidente said:
As someone who works at the BBC on a regular basis, Auntie has many flaws, but it is not institutionally biased. Nick Robinson, the chief political reporter in this year's election, is a former Young Conservative leader, Nigel Farage has appeared on Question Time more than any other politician in the last five years, Jeremy Paxman did apply once to be the editor of Labour supporting The New Statesman.

It appears to me, that whatever your political leanings, giving the BBC a kicking seems to be the in thing from all areas of the political spectrum precisely because it is independent, unlike the Express, from which you take your article.

Is it 'liberal' in the sense that is supports the arts, women, minorities and so on. Absolutely. Does it screw up on occasions? Yes it does, the Newsnight Jimmy Savile issue is a prime example of a producer flexing their muscles when they should not have done so. The BBC is also pretty fair in being willing to give a right of reply, unlike many of its print based critics.

The BBC is an easy target, it's funding is a historical anachronism, but it does still attempt to apply the Reithian edict of 'Inform, Educate and Entertain' to a far greater degree than any other broadcaster IMO, unless you think that someone else does a better job?

I have in the past believed that all of the media, including the BBC, have a bias against Rand Paul.

Was there any need for the BBC to present the Republican candidates like this? :lolol:

Although I think a degree of bias is true of all media organisations, and you have to account most of the time for the bias of the individual reporter or journo, rather than the organisation as a whole.

crookie · Dec 22, 2015

How many Eastern Europeans does it take to wash a car ? Up to 10 at my local garden centre, doing a job that could be done at the garage with none. I'm sure though that they all declare their earnings on their annual tax return though, and are not claiming jobseekers allowance at the same time !! Don't worry though, immigration is a net contributor to tax, if you believe everything you read

GT49er · Dec 23, 2015

So far, the only cogent argument that I can see that has been put forward by the 'In' brigade is that the financial sector part of our virtual economy might suffer a bit.
OK, fair enough, if that's the only 'good' reason for staying in, let's get out.

Herr Tubthumper · Dec 23, 2015

GT49er said:
So far, the only cogent argument that I can see that has been put forward by the 'In' brigade is that the financial sector part of our virtual economy might suffer a bit.
OK, fair enough, if that's the only 'good' reason for staying in, let's get out.

That's a bit unfair as I have spent considerable time correcting misunderstanding about free-trade agreements. [MENTION=2478]dibsy[/MENTION] and his ludicrous "Why can't we be like China" being an obvious post.

Westdene Seagull · Dec 23, 2015

cunning fergus said:
Those voting in, shouldnt do so unless they want the UK to join the euro, that is the logical next step even though our politicans wont say it is.

Indeed. And for those In's that think our politicians would hide this sort of thing whilst on the campaign trail I'll remind people that Ted Heath admitted years after the entry referendum that the plan was always a United States of Europe but that it couldn't be mentioned to the voters as it would have meant the referendum result being against entry.

Vote in and get the Euro.

dibsy · Dec 23, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
That's a bit unfair as I have spent considerable time correcting misunderstanding about free-trade agreements. [MENTION=2478]dibsy[/MENTION] and his ludicrous "Why can't we be like China" being an obvious post.

That's a bit unfair as it was a reasonable question and I appreciated your reply as it made more sense. The obvious next question is how much difference do the free trade agreements make?

Blue Valkyrie · Dec 23, 2015

We are heading inevitably to UK exit, and subsequent UK break up. Scotland will go it's own way, and Northern Ireland will not have a UK to be part of.

mona · Dec 23, 2015

Blue Valkyrie said:
We are heading inevitably to UK exit, and subsequent UK break up. Scotland will go it's own way, and Northern Ireland will not have a UK to be part of.

Why?
It's easy to be fooled by listening to the loudest voices. When it comes to it, a majority of Scots are unionist rather than nationalist.

mona · Dec 23, 2015

Triggaaar said:
It is true that many Scottish voters think that the BBC were completely biased in their reporting during the independence campaign.

Which is why the BBC allowed SNP politicians to avoid being interviewed by Andrew Neil after he mauled Sturgeon.

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