[Politics] Brexit

beorhthelm · Aug 31, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
The more I read about the Apple deal the more it stinks. Seriously, do people really want the UK to act the same? What if you're a business person or company owner? Do you really think it's fair one company gets such incredible perks but you don't? How is it fair one company is allowed to pay just 1% Corp tax but you pay 20? How is that fair? Fair enough if it applies to everyone but it didn't..and it was kept secret. Is this what you want?

the thing is, that isnt what is happening. they are judged to be paying an effective rate of 1% (or whatever in the detail), because under the Irish law you dont pay taxes on revenue made overseas. what the EU is saying is, we dont accept your national law, you must tax all a company's profits regardless where the revenue came from. thats the EU for you, they dont like the look of something so decide they are going to change it against the will of individual member state.

as for the UK offering Apple to come here, thats a cheap shot and pretty stupid thing to say, assume someone in central office was on holiday so it didnt get vetted properly. Apple would taxed on all revenues reported by the full corporation tax rate, which is more than in Ireland.

The Clamp · Aug 31, 2016

GT49er said:
Or if you're still going to bore us all by banging on about Brexit, just do it somewhere else altogether!

I know your mob would like to bury your heads and that you think the vote was the last of it now we can all shut up and let the "leaders" handle it.
Well it's not the end of it, not by a ways and people with brains want to talk about it so why do t you be the one to take your boring , narrow minded, little England, shortsighted, milksop, bullshit elsewhere?

Simster · Aug 31, 2016

beorhthelm said:
the thing is, that isnt what is happening. they are judged to be paying an effective rate of 1% (or whatever in the detail), because under the Irish law you dont pay taxes on revenue made overseas. what the EU is saying is, we dont accept your national law, you must tax all a company's profits regardless where the revenue came from. thats the EU for you, they dont like the look of something so decide they are going to change it against the will of individual member state.

You are wrong as you usually are when it comes to your embarrassing propping up of a blatantly unfair but right-wing status quo.

The EU is actually saying that sweetheart tax deals for individual companies is against EU law, and they are right. Ireland should be ashamed that they have even provided Apple a way to pay a meagre 0.05% of their corporate profits which is money the Irish and EU public deserve, and I am delighted that the EU are planning on enforcing this.

And Herr Tubthumper is equally right to say that the UK cosying up to them after the fallout is grubby and underhand. Is this what the Brexiters all voted for? To allow our government of the day to cosy up to these mega rich conglomerates so that they don't have to pay any tax? It is shocking.

I think many Brexiters voted that way to reclaim our borders or to allow us to negotiate trade deals elsewhere without EU enforced tariffs, NOT to grubbily take advantage of corporations trying to avoid paying the tax they should be paying.

c0lz · Aug 31, 2016

The Clamp said:
These are the kind of deals the UK can expect from now on. Workers rights eroded as harsh terms are foisted upon us. I warned this would happen way back in July and what do ya know, it's started. Well done Brexiteers. This is what you voted for.

What you predicted that Ireland and America would fall out with the E.U. And what ever the right's and wrongs on this deal this row will go on and on and on. and maybe with the threat of Ireland also pulling Out.

Quote: Workers rights eroded as harsh terms are foisted upon us, Think your find the UK would try and offer a better deal under the terms now being forced by the E.U onto France and its called Negotiating

The Clamp · Aug 31, 2016

Yep. Everything I've predicted so far is happening. And more.
Also very intriguing how UKIP and Farage are spending time in the US. Watch that space. That'll be intriguing!

beorhthelm · Aug 31, 2016

Simster said:
You are wrong as you usually are when it comes to your embarrassing propping up of a blatantly unfair but right-wing status quo.

The EU is actually saying that sweetheart tax deals for individual companies is against EU law, and they are right. Ireland should be ashamed that they have even provided Apple a way to pay a meagre 0.05% of their corporate profits which is money the Irish and EU public deserve, and I am delighted that the EU are planning on enforcing this.

im only relaying the opinion of the Irish government. their position is this isn't a spcial arrangement, its their standard tax law that applies to foreign corporations. yes, they've created a tax haven for themselves to attract large corporations, and we dont have similar tax arrangments here. so in which part am in wrong?

Simster · Aug 31, 2016

beorhthelm said:
im only relaying the opinion of the Irish government. their position is this isn't a spcial arrangement, its their standard tax law that applies to foreign corporations. yes, they've created a tax haven for themselves to attract large corporations, and we dont have similar tax arrangments here. so in which part am in wrong?

This bit:

beorhthelm said:
what the EU is saying is, we dont accept your national law, you must tax all a company's profits regardless where the revenue came from. thats the EU for you, they dont like the look of something so decide they are going to change it against the will of individual member state.

It's bollocks. The Irish have broken EU law by allowing Apple a sweetheart deal, so the EU are enforcing their law. The EU is not changing anything.

You make it sound like the EU are acting like bullies rather than enforcing a law the Irish themselves have signed up to. :nono:

beorhthelm · Aug 31, 2016

Simster said:
It's bollocks. The Irish have broken EU law by allowing Apple a sweetheart deal, so the EU are enforcing their law. The EU is not changing anything.

thats for the courts to decide. EU says they've allowed a special deal, Ireland and Apple say its the standard rules. the EU dont like that Ireland has different laws on how they tax local company's overseas earnings, which is why they've investigated the matter in the first place.

Herr Tubthumper · Aug 31, 2016

BigGully said:
Since when has the EU been a guiding light of big business morality

Since Yesterday?

Soulman · Aug 31, 2016

The Clamp said:
Yep. Everything I've predicted so far is happening. And more.
Also very intriguing how UKIP and Farage are spending time in the US. Watch that space. That'll be intriguing!

Do you work. Just dropped in at lunchtime and you are still sending a glass eye to sleep.

Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo! · Aug 31, 2016

beorhthelm said:
thats for the courts to decide. EU says they've allowed a special deal, Ireland and Apple say its the standard rules. the EU dont like that Ireland has different laws on how they tax local company's overseas earnings, which is why they've investigated the matter in the first place.

It's not a question of liking or disliking anything, one of the EU Commission's functions to ensure that the treaties, laws etc of the EU are applied correctly and consistently throughout all the member states with, as you infer, the ECJ making the final ruling if the parties choose to appeal. This case is broadly similar, although less advanced, to those already brought by the Commission against Luxembourg and the Netherlands, the basic thrust here being as I understand it, that the Irish "rules" as being applied to Apple are essentially nothing more than a means by which this member state is facilitating corporation tax evasion and as such, de facto, contravening EU law on state subsidies.

Herr Tubthumper · Aug 31, 2016

BigGully said:
.When Apple slips out into another continent and the Irish take an unemployment hit you can give yourself a big pat on the back

Maybe the unemployed could get jobs at the businesses which will now be able to compete equally and now flourish in a more level playing field?

BigGully · Aug 31, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
Maybe the unemployed could get jobs at the businesses which will now be able to compete equally and now flourish in a more level playing field?

Business's wont flourish by just bringing others into their comparatively inflated tax regimes, its the other way round, luckily now that we will soon be out of the EU we might offer something to encourage more investment in the UK, unhindered by the failing EU and its political dogma.

Herr Tubthumper · Aug 31, 2016

BigGully said:
Business's wont flourish by just bringing others into their comparatively inflated tax regimes, its the other way round, luckily now that we will soon be out of the EU we might offer something to encourage more investment in the UK, unhindered by the failing EU and its political dogma.

Do you think its fair then? Is it okay for one corporation to be given such an equal advantage? Business, in part, flourishes due to competivenss. And let's forget about the tax regimes of Ireland because this clearly isn't one; it's a single secret sweetheart deal.

Simster · Aug 31, 2016

BigGully said:
Business's wont flourish by just bringing others into their comparatively inflated tax regimes, its the other way round, luckily now that we will soon be out of the EU we might offer something to encourage more investment in the UK, unhindered by the failing EU and its political dogma.

You seem to be struggling to understand the important bits of this story. Namely, that Apple have bullied their way to paying almost no tax. The EU is ensuring that - if Apple want to trade with their 400m people - Apple better pay the tax they are due, according to the law. In what way is this "political dogma"?

The Clamp · Aug 31, 2016

Soulman said:
Do you work. Just dropped in at lunchtime and you are still sending a glass eye to sleep.

The irony of YOU critisising anyone for posting a lot is eye watering.

BigGully · Aug 31, 2016

Herr Tubthumper said:
Do you think its fair then? Is it okay for one corporation to be given such an equal advantage? Business, in part, flourishes due to competivenss. And let's forget about the tax regimes of Ireland because this clearly isn't one; it's a single secret sweetheart deal.

No I am not sure it is fair, but if you care about outcomes then it needs some considerations.

Apple is a massive organisation something perversely that the EU are in many ways trying to politically replicate, the EU can then exert its own views/politics on others, you seem to readily accept that aspiration whilst agreeing that the UK might not get free and unfettered access to that trading block because we happened to vote to leave, I am not sure that's fair either, but the size of us as an economy means we might negotiate something that others could not, not sure thats fair either.

If fairness is what you are looking for then the EU, the UK, Apple and Starbucks are not the places to be looking at.

BigGully · Aug 31, 2016

Simster said:
You seem to be struggling to understand the important bits of this story. Namely, that Apple have bullied their way to paying almost no tax. The EU is ensuring that - if Apple want to trade with their 400m people - Apple better pay the tax they are due, according to the law. In what way is this "political dogma"?

Let the EU get on with it, looking from soon to be non EU perspective it will be interesting to see how this plays out and how we outside of the EU might find a business advantage to encourage further investment here in the UK.

beorhthelm · Aug 31, 2016

Alex said:
It's not a question of liking or disliking anything, one of the EU Commission's functions to ensure that the treaties, laws etc of the EU are applied correctly and consistently throughout all the member states with, as you infer, the ECJ making the final ruling if the parties choose to appeal. This case is broadly similar, although less advanced, to those already brought by the Commission against Luxembourg and the Netherlands, the basic thrust here being as I understand it, that the Irish "rules" as being applied to Apple are essentially nothing more than a means by which this member state is facilitating corporation tax evasion and as such, de facto, contravening EU law on state subsidies.

a country's taxation law is outside the remit of EU treaties (aside from VAT), but they have powers around state aid. in this case they have tried to draw one issue into the scope of the other. Ireland has indeed offered a neat tax avoidance facility for international companies, what should be in question is whether or not this was on a special basis for Apple alone. the commision's press release is conspicuously lacking in detail what the special deal with Apple is, it explains how the internal accounting transfers profits to the "head office" account which isnt domicled in Ireland isnt due to pay tax. it even acknowledges that if the profits had been taxed elsewhere they wouldnt be subject to this investigation, contradicting the premise of state aid. i.e. if Apple tomorrow repatriated to US all Ireland HQ profits from 2003 onwards, there would be nothing to pay to Ireland.

Herr Tubthumper · Aug 31, 2016

BigGully said:
Business's wont flourish by just bringing others into their comparatively inflated tax regimes, its the other way round,

Are you suggesting that less corporation tax means businesses flourish?

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