Child Benefit Changes

Dr. Notthenineo'clocknews · Nov 15, 2012

Nibble said:
I don't begrudge a family 20 quid a week if they need it, the government should be trying to get us all up to a certain standard not bring us all down to a certain level but I do object to a family earning plenty of money receiving benefit that they waste. I abhore the attitude of "We're a lovely middle class family, our benefit is not scrounging but if you happen to be ill-educated and poor, now those benefits are for scroungers". That attitude stinks.

we could have this argument/discussion for the rest of our lives, I don't want a fight with you, yes there are a lot of tax payers on here paying a lot more than me, there are a lot of people on here working a lot harder than me, there are certainly a lot on here that contribute a lot more to society than me. just on a final point though i'd not call myself middle class, I'm a Birdham Rd boy doing a reletively unskilled job married to a Bevendean girl that studied hard at school, I chose the work route rather than dole that's all. I'm out now, I hope I haven't offended anyone (working or actively trying to work), A quick one for my own peace of mind, I won't be replying, do you still see us both as sroungers?

Nibble · Nov 15, 2012

BLOCK F said:
My God,this is even more abysmal than the earlier example you posted,Nibble.
You come across as a very angry individual.Perhaps best you stay single.

from a few posts on a website.
I'm not angry in the slightest Mr F and no, I will not go out with you.

Curious Orange · Nov 15, 2012

What a depressing lot of shit talked on this thread.

We had the letter through the other day with regard to our child benefit. We could have kept some of it... but only if we went on self-assessment. We decided that the time spent on tax returns would be better spent with our son, and gave up the benefit.

It wouldn't surprise me if they go after childcare vouchers next; if they did that one of us would have to give up work even though our boy is in the cheapest nursery in the area.

(We have now cancelled Christmas)

:jester:

Bozza · Nov 15, 2012

lost in london said:
Votes.

Well, yes.

I can't see any party from anywhere on the political spectrum telling every family in the country "you won't receive this nice tax free payment every month any more" - it would be political suicide.

I hope that this proves to be the first step in phasing it out completely.

Dr. Notthenineo'clocknews · Nov 15, 2012

Nibble said:
I don't begrudge a family 20 quid a week if they need it, the government should be trying to get us all up to a certain standard not bring us all down to a certain level but I do object to a family earning plenty of money receiving benefit that they waste. I abhore the attitude of "We're a lovely middle class family, our benefit is not scrounging but if you happen to be ill-educated and poor, now those benefits are for scroungers". That attitude stinks.

we could have this argument/discussion for the rest of our lives, I don't want a fight with you, yes there are a lot of tax payers on here paying a lot more than me, there are a lot of people on here working a lot harder than me, there are certainly a lot on here that contribute a lot more to society than me. just on a final point though i'd not call myself middle class, I'm a Birdham Rd boy doing a reletively unskilled job (ill educated? I went to Moulsecoomb and then Falmer in the 80's) married to a Bevendean girl that studied hard at school, I chose the work route rather than dole that's all. I'm out now, I hope I haven't offended anyone (working or actively trying to work), A quick one for my own peace of mind, I won't be replying, do you still see us both as sroungers?

Nibble · Nov 15, 2012

Dr. Notthenineo'clocknews said:
we could have this argument/discussion for the rest of our lives, I don't want a fight with you, yes there are a lot of tax payers on here paying a lot more than me, there are a lot of people on here working a lot harder than me, there are certainly a lot on here that contribute a lot more to society than me. just on a final point though i'd not call myself middle class, I'm a Birdham Rd boy doing a reletively unskilled job married to a Bevendean girl that studied hard at school, I chose the work route rather than dole that's all. I'm out now, I hope I haven't offended anyone (working or actively trying to work), A quick one for my own peace of mind, I won't be replying, do you still see us both as sroungers?

I do not wish to argue either. You're taking money you have admitted you don't need. Okay not a great crime and you are entitled but yes, I see that as scrounging. However, all the best and please, please don't go to a Sandals resort.

lost in london · Nov 15, 2012

Bozza said:
Well, yes.

I can't see any party from anywhere on the political spectrum telling every family in the country "you won't receive this nice tax free payment every month any more" - it would be political suicide.

I hope that this proves to be the first step in phasing it out completely.

Absolutely right about political suicide - this thread shows that there is a massive sense of entitlement out there for something that is for a lot of people (but obviously not all) just a nice bit of cash for saving / holiday.

Tricky Dicky · Nov 15, 2012

I've long thought that child allowance shouldn't be paid for anything over 2 kids. Unfortunately, if you advocate this, you get accused of discrimination and genetic selection.

BLOCK F · Nov 15, 2012

Nibble said:
from a few posts on a website.
I'm not angry in the slightest Mr F and no, I will not go out with you.

I am pleased you are not angry and very pleased you will not go out with me!: :thumbsup:

Think this one has probably been done to death.What shall we argue about next? :lolol:

Bozza · Nov 15, 2012

Curious Orange said:
It wouldn't surprise me if they go after childcare vouchers next; if they did that one of us would have to give up work even though our boy is in the cheapest nursery in the area.:

It would surprise me.

Labour went after Vouchers and there was a huge backlash, particularly from the Mums.net sort of crowd, that led to them all but backing down. Like the Tories with the Child Benefit though, Labour were trying to do the right thing, I think. Salary sacrifice schemes benefit higher rate tax payers more than lower rate tax payers - more benefit goes to those who least need it.

What Labour did in the end was to put some means testing in place for higher rate tax payers but, again, there are anomalies in terms of how the benefit can be accrued for couples with differing levels of income.

Dr. Notthenineo'clocknews · Nov 15, 2012

Nibble said:
I do not wish to argue either. You're taking money you have admitted you don't need. Okay not a great crime and you are entitled but yes, I see that as scrounging. However, all the best and please, please don't go to a Sandals resort.

this is (hopefully) my last post on the subject, this whole holiday thing stems from post #27, yes we'll be having a holiday next year, as we are both working full time we assumed it'd be ok, The Modfather posts on here, he'll vouch for me, we've got Butlins in Bognor Regis for four nights, got it off groupon or somwhere similar, I'll bring you back a stick of rock - Reagards Adam

Deleted member 22389 · Nov 15, 2012

Nobody should be entitled to any benefits until they have paid in to the system for x amount of years. It is unfair for people to get benefits for doing nothing, when other people who have contributed in to the system get the same, less or in some cases nothing because they have worked hard and looked after their money. Cap child benefit at two kids as well from a certain date, it would stop abuse of the system in some cases.

Labour created a proper mess with the benefits system. Wonder how much money has been wasted through fraudulent claims?. Probably enough to build new hospitals, schools and keep some of our essential services open.

And when Labour go on about how evil The Tories are, how else are they meant clear the debt that Labour created in the first place.

Nibble · Nov 15, 2012

Dr. Notthenineo'clocknews said:
this is (hopefully) my last post on the subject, this whole holiday thing stems from post #27, yes we'll be having a holiday next year, as we are both working full time we assumed it'd be ok, The Modfather posts on here, he'll vouch for me, we've got Butlins in Bognor Regis for four nights, got it off groupon or somwhere similar, I'll bring you back a stick of rock - Reagards Adam

Can I have a big lolly instead? C'mon, you can afford it

TranmereGull · Nov 15, 2012

Waino696969 said:
I feel for you mate, but from I understand (have a close mate currently dealing with the CSA) they include all taxable income in their calculations, whether that be a cash for car allowance or a P11D benefit in kind. Ridiculous really as you have already paid income tax on it, so the CSA basically wipe out that extra which you need to be able to perform your day to day job.

From what I've seen and heard the CSA seem to be even bigger wankers than those at HMRC. I didn't think that was possible.

I am in the same boat as [MENTION=5076]Bevendean Hillbilly[/MENTION]. Got made redundant from a previous job and when I got another one I found that my ex was after taxable benefits from my previous job. I ran up big debts paying mortgage and all that whilst I was unemployed (didnt claim any benefits whatsoever) then as soon as I got back into work they clobbered me again for monies "owed" from previous employment. Am fighting it now. Dont hold out much hope.

Especially galling as for years I paid the full mortgage on my former marital home and walked away with nowt after divorce giving her the whole lot to ensure she was OK...it feels like a f***ing vendetta.

ROSM · Nov 15, 2012

Speaking as someone who is going to miss out, I fully understand WHY a government decided to do this. I also fully understand why many people feel it is an archaic payment. I will miss it - we always put the benefit towards specific things for the children (such as park passes, nursery costs, swimming lessons, albion in the community sessions, other sports lessons etc) so we will fund those from elsewhere if we continue with them (and we are deciding now which ones if any we stop).

Without getting into;

- the glass ceilings that exisit for women with children,
- or indeed the benefit of having mothers or fathers at home in order to free up jobs for the wider workforce

the method proposed by the government to do this (taking a single income as the deciding factor) negates a large number of those benefits. Why have one partner aiming to maximise their income and allow the other to leave work/work part time, when both of you can work full time and be under the radar?

But the part I supposed that disappointed me most was that the plan was ratified in the very same budget that reduced the tax rate for the very top earners. We have an amount of money paid out that finds its way at least 90% of the time into the British economy (figures from the treasury) and then give more back to a population where the likely investment back into this country (even with the multiplier effect of wealth created from investing in communities and jobs) at an expected level of 60%

Having looked into this I've decided that self-assessment is the way forward. There are a number of small things that I do that I could claim tax back on and never have (professional memberships etc) so nows the time to offset these. I'm not sure how Customs and Revenue will cope with the increased number of self-asessments - to be frank neither are they with the cuts they're making at the moment.

TranmereGull · Nov 15, 2012

ROSM said:
Speaking as someone who is going to miss out, I fully understand WHY a government decided to do this. I also fully understand why many people feel it is an archaic payment. I will miss it - we always put the benefit towards specific things for the children (such as park passes, nursery costs, swimming lessons, albion in the community sessions, other sports lessons etc) so we will fund those from elsewhere if we continue with them (and we are deciding now which ones if any we stop).

Without getting into;

- the glass ceilings that exisit for women with children,
- or indeed the benefit of having mothers or fathers at home in order to free up jobs for the wider workforce

the method proposed by the government to do this (taking a single income as the deciding factor) negates a large number of those benefits. Why have one partner aiming to maximise their income and allow the other to leave work/work part time, when both of you can work full time and be under the radar?

But the part I supposed that disappointed me most was that the plan was ratified in the very same budget that reduced the tax rate for the very top earners. We have an amount of money paid out that finds its way at least 90% of the time into the British economy (figures from the treasury) and then give more back to a population where the likely investment back into this country (even with the multiplier effect of wealth created from investing in communities and jobs) at an expected level of 60%

Having looked into this I've decided that self-assessment is the way forward. There are a number of small things that I do that I could claim tax back on and never have (professional memberships etc) so nows the time to offset these. I'm not sure how Customs and Revenue will cope with the increased number of self-asessments - to be frank neither are they with the cuts they're making at the moment.

Great post.

I was on self assessment for ages (not out of choice) and it was a pain in the arse for me as I didnt have loads of tax offset activities or shares etc. I am now considering this option again as (whilst on it) I got a rebate every year.

If everyone decided to do this it would probably mean that HMRC would grind to a halt

Bozza · Nov 15, 2012

TranmereGull said:
I was on self assessment for ages (not out of choice) and it was a pain in the arse for me as I didnt have loads of tax offset activities or shares etc. I am now considering this option again as (whilst on it) I got a rebate every year.

Why was it a pain in the arse? If your affairs are simple - single salaried income and a bank account or two with a small amount of interest - then it should be straight forward taking up very little time.

sten_super · Nov 15, 2012

As others have mentioned, the whole tax system is full of inconsistent rubbish. If any party really wanted to sort out the tax and benefits system in this country then they would scrap the whole thing and start again.

- assess households for taxes and benefits, not individuals
- create a benefit system based around incentives and a long-term (and cross-party) social strategy - so if you want to encourage people to have children (and have a budget to pay for it) offer child benefit; otherwise don't
- create a tax system free from loopholes that clearly meets a long-term (and cross-party) taxation strategy based upon harmonising tax rates across individuals and businesses and (presumably) progressive taxation.

Birdie Boy · Nov 15, 2012

TranmereGull said:
Great post.

I was on self assessment for ages (not out of choice) and it was a pain in the arse for me as I didnt have loads of tax offset activities or shares etc. I am now considering this option again as (whilst on it) I got a rebate every year.

If everyone decided to do this it would probably mean that HMRC would grind to a halt

Errr, once you have done a self assessment you have to do it every year forever, you can't decide to stop it. At least, that's the way I understand it.. Maybe if you are out of work for a year, can you come of it then?

I know a guy who is a millionaire, he collects his winter fuel allowance and free prescriptions and thinks nothing of it, as he has worked hard all his life, which is true. He has just sold a property and made £300k profit, he doesn't need the money so is giving it to his kids (in their 30's), they will also be getting family allowance... If this isn't an example of being means tested, I don't know what is. BTW, I am not bitter, I will lose my benefit but I think it is a good idea, IF they did it by means test across the household.

CheeseRolls · Nov 15, 2012

Looking forward to seeing this thread bounced in decades to come, when the senile Dr.Not under the care of his offspring points out that his descendants are paying for Nibble's hefty care home bills.

My point here is that tax fairness is not about the here and now and you need to take a long term view. You can either view this as insurance "What if I get sick ?" or if you prefer take a business perspective. Every penny invested in children's well being and education increases the likely return on future tax collection. Countries with ageing populations and dwindling birth rates (Japan and Italy for example) face some difficult challenges ahead and there are some genuine benefits in making it easier for people to start families and bring up children.

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