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[Politics] Donald Trump 2024
- Thread starter Zeberdi
- Start date
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,881
- Thread starter
- #2,623
He’s running the lunatics that are threatening to take over
BadFish
Huge Member
- Oct 19, 2003
- 17,127
I totally agree, I just wish that this discussion would shed some light on what people actually see in Trump. I am still struggling to understand why people would vote for him.Can I remind you where we are
I disagree with much of your policy stance but absolutely agree that there is no reason why we shouldn’t have a proper debate without trolling/abuse/rudeness/personal digs (that I’ve seen expressed by pro-Trump and a few anti-Trump posters too btw). As has been pointed out by a couple of posters, some 50% of the American polled electorate have what they think are good reasons for supporting Trump’s reelection, any Biden supporters dismissing them as just kooky and ignoring their concerns, do so at their peril. What it does matter if people who support Trump are considered lunatics by the left? It should only matter that they could end up running the asylum.
I guess we have this idea that he is some kind of anti-authority figure. Which I get but really struggle to see him as anything other than part of the establishment he is supposed to be fighting.
Alongside this it appears to be mainly that he is not Biden, which I also get but there are 350 million people in the USA how has it come down to these two?
I guess you can add in the old faithful 'immigrants!' argument they seem to be relying on.
Can any of our pro trump types shed any more light on their support for him?
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,881
- Thread starter
- #2,626
I certainly don’t think he is an anti-authority figure at all really - I think that is a facade and an expedient narrative he has manufactured - Trump loves the power of authority providing it’s his own and is basically anti anything that doesn’t line his own pocket or feeds his narcissistic appetite for adulation. He is just not a conviction politician.
Biden has had support as a politician for many years and his popularity continued as Obama’s VEEP. However, imo he has lost support of young voters because of his age and the dems failure to get across to the electorate his achievements while in his first term - I think it more a case of people supporting Biden because he is not Trump now rather than for positive reasons - As for why Trump has such a large following, I can’t really fathom the phenomenon of Trumpism other than, in similar ways to Margret Thatcher, he is a demagogue who has appealed to people’s darker angels ( such as their prejudices) and their focus toward ‘self’ rather than relying on rational argument in the pursuit of power.
I think his was only posted in response to yours. I'm not convinced it wasn't written by someone living near the border.
I don't know whether it is or not.
When I said news sites should be regulated I wasn't talking about the likes of twitter, because that's not a news site. Although I think the news in the UK is better, I used GB News as an example of things not perfect here either - I don't see how I could use CNN as an example there, since it's American?
The article you linked to was picking some border stats to comment on. I don't have time to verify whether or not the stats were accurate, or find out what the stats were like under Trump, or look into the detail around the stats. If you wanted debated, I posted several things that would put me off voting Trump in post #2,628. You're welcome to say if you don't agree with any of those points.
Curious Orange
Punxsatawney Phil
Populists prosper when a significant percentage of people think that they are being ignored or mispresented. I think @Zeberdi has quite well outlined a number of key issues that have brought us to the current global discontent where the choices made by the political minority have the appearance of being made without consideration as to how they effect the electorate.
The people, sadly. Or perhaps not sadly.
It is what it is.
Humans are on a learning curve and are perhaps still near the bottom of it. At least we no longer raid the next village, killing the men, stealing the food and raping the women, like we have done from time to time for most of our existence.
As I explain to my students, our autonomic nervous system is still pretty much as it has evolved, over the millennia, to manage our need to fight, kill, rape and run away.
The Russians still do.
Crawley Dingo
Political thread tourist.
- Mar 31, 2022
- 596
He was set up if you have been following the story properly.
Crawley Dingo
Political thread tourist.
- Mar 31, 2022
- 596
My apologies you are correct but i hope you understand that for everypost i make here I get 3 or more responses that range from polite to rude to batshit crazy and it gets very tiresome.
Gracious apology accepted - thanks.
Crawley Dingo
Political thread tourist.
- Mar 31, 2022
- 596
Not sure why I’m (or any of us!) still replying to you tbh - given the way you have repeatedly responded to my posts with rudeness and name calling on this thread. You know full well my comment re,Trump being incarcerated at Fulton was a joke relating to your statement that he ‘left Fulton jail’ in your post above.
As for the second part of your post, I don’t need to explain why something occurred in order to attempt to define it but I will accept your question based as it was on the premise that my definition of populism in my earlier post was acceptable to you:
As for why populism has pervaded global politics in the last decade or so, that is another issue altogether but off the top of my head, I’ll give a response as such, and google a few links to back up my assertion - but this is with the proviso that the concept of ‘populism’ has many different tangents and is expressed in a number of different ways, so a single definition of what constitutes populist policies is impossible as each Country/region has it’s own set of political conditions. Having said that, the populist movements we have seen in the past few decades have some common underlying themes imo and are related to some specific factors:
- 9/11 - The global war on terror (9 post-9/11 wars) by the US and allies, has directly resulted in mass population displacements (possibly up to 59 million) and created up to 12 million global cross border refugees between 2011-2019. Those figures only include areas that the US/allied forces have directly been fighting in as the war on terror but there have been other conflicts too that have arisen as a knock on effect such as those caused by the Arab Spring uprisings; or refugees and asylum seekers resulting from the withdrawal/repositioning of US troops in places like Afghanistan and Syria . It doesn’t include the war in Ukraine. Sharp increases in the intake of refugees and asylum seekers into Countries already experiencing depleted resources and growing pressure on public services has triggered a backlash in those Countries accepting them. This combined with anti-Muslim sentiment arising from 9/11 itself and subsequent terror based organisations gaining strongholds in the ME and Africa, has provided one of the main policy ideas of populist movements, that of anti-immigration and Islamophobic sentiment.
- South American increase in violence and extreme poverty As far as the US is concerned, ironically, movement of economic migrants of Mexicans into the US decreased in the mid-2000s when the Great Recession of 2008 hit construction industry (which had a large Mexican workforce) deterring migrants and coinciding with better economic conditions in Mexico. However, growing violence, extreme poverty and racism in places like Equador, Columbia, Haiti and Venezuela have resulted the movement of millions of asylum seekers making the arduous journey into Mexico to cross the Mexican border into the US - public Anti-immigration sentiment in response to this rising migration in the US has been fuelled and scapegoated by the far right and found it’s way in to mainstream right wing populist politics.
- The rise of Eurosceptism - the combination of growing European integration (and its consequential bureaucracy and growing body of legislation/rules) and global economic crisis in 2008 gave rise to dissatisfaction that the EU was not helping to solve people’s problems, small businesses were going to the wall and interest rates and inflationary pressures were resulting in mortgage defaults as a result of negative equity. Far right political parties and at their core, nationalism, gained strength on scapegoating the EU - this was particularly true in France, Sweden and the Netherlands - Mainstream political parties began to see electoral milage in eurosceptic policy platforms.
- Globalisation of trade and cheap foreign labour (both imported and in situ at source) hit areas/regions that had struggled to adapt to internal levels of high unemployment (in part caused by technological/digitalisation of traditional industries in the past several decades) and as Western domestic manufacturing industries started to collapse. Free trade movement and labour movement within the EU and the flooding of Western markets with cheap imports from the growing industrial and productive strength of the tiger economies gave rise to isolationist economic policies and anti-imported labour (particularly into the NHS and Agriculture) - another foundational aspect of right wing populist ideology.
- Climate Change - Since the Kyoto Agreement on Climate Change in 1997, subsequent treaties have imposed more and more stringent targets on reducing the impact of fossil fuels - the cost and inconvenience of ‘being responsible guardians of the planet’ has resulted in a backlash against policies designed to combat climate change. Anti-pro Climate Change policies and even Climate Change deniers have become a common theme in the rise of populism in past decade, culminating in Trump withdrawing from the Paris Agreement and various mainstream parties rolling back on their ‘green‘ commitments. Anti-environmental sentiment, once espouse by conspiracy theorists and Climate Change deniers has been popularised by the rise of far right politics into the mainstream in the past decade. Huge protests against the rising cost of green taxes/levies on fossil fuel use have been compounded by the war in Ukraine and more recently the war in Gaza. Climate Change has become a highly politicised issue dividing the left and right spectrum of political thinking and has been weaponised by the right - ’a new poll by YouGov for The Economist found that whereas 87% of Biden voters believed that climate change was caused by human activity, only 21% of Trump voters agreed’.
- Covid Pandemic - ‘As populist parties in particular thrive, if not even depend, on crises, the link between populism and various aspects of the recent COVID-19 crisis is of great interest to social scientists’. Trump and Bolsonaro both populist, right wing leaders, played down the seriousness of the pandemic, as did some far left groups, yet there was a populist backlash against the severity of lockdown measures and social distancing regulations which provided perfect fodder for right wing conspiracy theorist and the anti-establishment sentiment, a central tenet of ‘populism’ to exploit. Populist parties globally boosted their position by politicising the pandemic for anti-establishment fervour and presenting themselves as the ‘only ones capable’ of ‘dealing with the crisis’.
There are more reasons why there has been a rise in global movements of populism but these are some of the main ones imo that I’ve pulled out - but your very broad and open question has necessitated a far too long answer as it is so I’ll leave it there.
Inforegio - The development trap: a cause of Euroscepticism?
EuropeanCommission – Regional Policy - Inforegioec.europa.eu
Inside the deteriorating conditions forcing South American migrants to flee north from country to country
ABC News Live followed a Venezuelan family who are among the millions of migrants that have been part of the largest forced displacement in history not caused by war.abcnews.go.com
The global backlash against climate policies has begun
Cost, convenience and conspiracy-mongering undercut support for greenerywww.economist.com
Populism in Times of a Pandemic
Abstract This article provides an analysis of the COVID-19 discourse within six European populist parties from Spain, Germany, and France, with the aim of shedding light on the diverse interpretations and presentations of the pandemic by these parties. While most studies focus on right-wing or...brill.com
See my post above, seriously I'm not going through all that, its a holiday. Being brief, precise and to the point is the way to go on message boards. I have no wish to spend much more than 30 mins on here preferably browsing football threads.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,881
- Thread starter
- #2,635
Then don’t read my posts. it’s simple.
Seriously, you are adding very little to the debate on this thread, despite some of us endlessly trying to accommodate your POV and despite your rudeness and name calling so perhaps you would do well to focus on the football threads as you said tbh because although your political POV is welcome as is anybody’s, your attitude towards other posters is not.
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Their last post on a football thread seems to be back in January some time!
Crawley Dingo
Political thread tourist.
- Mar 31, 2022
- 596
And their you are being rude, saying you have TDS isn't rude as I pointed out the lack of conciliatory points. Calling your scroll bombs mental gymnastics isn't rude. For example if trumps a racist post a direct quote and source, or Utube with a timestamp if its long as it really is that simple. Pointing to an industry wide problem 55 years ago when trump was in his 20s and his father ran the company is evidence of nothing.Then don’t read my posts. it’s simple.
If you continue to respond to my posts with rudeness, I will put you on ignore - Not once on this thread have I made personal digs about you or been rude, I have
Or perhaps is because you know I outsmart you on the arguments each time that rather than address the points intelligently your response is to attack me instead? I’m not going to be advised by one of the biggest trolls on this thread on how I should write my posts
I think its best if we avoid each other in this thread.
Crawley Dingo
Political thread tourist.
- Mar 31, 2022
- 596
Their?
- Apr 5, 2014
- 23,601
Same here. A good watch. But I think seeing Wokeism as being a thing is a subjective bias that calls us to join a side. There are some cultural attitudes that I feel have changed for the better, some which I don't really understand, and others that I'm not on board with. To lump them together as one only gives me a for or against option. The very thing he calls rational thinking to oppose.
Curious Orange
Punxsatawney Phil
Muller was set up? Or Trump?
All I know is that the Muller investigation was commenced by the DoJ under President Trump, and concluded whilst he was still in office.