We must take back our streets...

[Yorkie]

I agree Buzz but how can you make parents take more responsibility when they don't care?
Fining them doesn't do any good when a lot of them are on benefits. I know that sounds like a massive generalisation and not everyone of benefits has deliquent children, but I hope you can see what I mean.
There are also the parents who don't believe that their darling children are capable of doing anything wrong even when the evidence is staring them in the face.

 

[NMH]

In the meantime, kids who are left to run wild know they can get away with it, so they do. Their parents don't bother, the schools hands are tied and no-one else really cares.

Agree with most of your post - but I think you will agree that it shouldn't be schools' responsibility to police youth as well as educate. If there was a tighter community interest and effort in what kids are doing and becoming, there would be a better channeling of youth activities.

 

[NMH]

I believe parents should take more responsibility.

I watched the program on gang culture in Newham on Panorama last night. Unfortunately I didn't see one father.

In a lot of families, up and down the country, the 2 parent family is not the norm. In a lot of cases, mothers can't control their wayward sons.

In a perfect world this would apply - but the parents are ALSO products of a society with little control or interest! Ferrel people are not suddenly going to become ideal parents with 'accepted responsibilities'.



'fact'

 

[Blackadder]

Scum breeds scum. I hear what you are saying NMH.

Environment has a lot to do with it as well. We are fortunate in most (not all) areas of Sussex. Unfortunately there are too many "No Go" areas in British Cities.

I wasn't implying that all one parent families are delinquent. My own father died when I was a child and we didn't implode. It may have been different if I lived on an estate where all the other kids were in the same boat.

A father that takes responsibilty for his kids is definitely a step in the right direction.

 

[Ding Dong !]

That letter almost brought a tear to my eye ( Having four daughters myself ). My heart goes out to that little girl.

 

[Gwylan]

The trouble with glib slogans like "Take back our streets" is that most of us wouldn't actually want to do anything that makes our streets safer.

For example: we work the longest hours in Europe, take the fewest holidays and commute the longest distances to work - we therefore tend to spend less time with our kids and, guess what, we have the EU's highest rates for teenage pregnancies and teenage drug users, the most teenage drinkers and, I think, the highest rates of youth crime (it's one of the highest certainly). Yet our economy is predicated on house prices rising indefinitely and two people working to meet higher and higher mortgage payments, so any attempts to correct this situation would meet firm resistance.

Our children are also less likely to play in the streets when young. Any attempts to curb traffic to enable more playing would also be met with firm resistance - look at regular NSC posts about speed cameras, traffic wardens etc. If we condemn our children to spend their early years cooped up indoors, watching TV and playing computer games, it's not surprising that they have limited social skills.

We drive everywhere between home, work, supermarkets, leisure activities, so we don't get to know our neighbours, don't shop at local shops (which then close down) and don't feel part of the local community. So families are more and more isolated.

It should also be stressed that incidents like the Warrington one are relatively rare and as such, we're prepared to tolerate them. Particularly when the alternative is a marked alteration in our lifestyle: we want to live in a private world, cocooned from strangers and away from our local community and if if means that one or two of us are killed every year, then that's the price we'll pay - but it's a price that we're happy to pay.

 

[Les Biehn]

I love the way everyone is so keen to punish rather than look at the problems that lead to these crimes. The problems of poverty, low self worth, violence etc... are in my opinion the causes behind such social problems and if only we could address them then the crime rate, especially violent crime, would go down.

Also love the use of the youth, a catch all word that now has nice demonising connotations. Funny that when a bunch of middle aged gangsters pull off a robbery or some blokes in their 20s and 30s have a big drunken fight they are not referred to by some generalised word or phrase.

 

[Caveman]

I fear this is beyond our reach.

Scum live and breed in society, the must have society has taken over and has no respect for their elders or fellow breathren.

We have a society of disaffected youths who now turn to gang culture as the only means of life.

Maybe as parents we have have failed and perhaps they are alienated by our government policys and a divided society of the haves and the have nots.

I was so angry watching Panarama last night and I honestly think its the Goverment that has let this country down.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Regarding the title, I was trying to be a bit tabloid about it.

Are these cases that rare? There have be noticeable increases of late.

I agree about the family factor and lack of community. Blair based pretty much his whole ideal for his premiership around the family and that is one of his major failings. In sharp contrast, you see our counterparts on the continent who treasure the family life, particularly France and Italy. (Generalising) Children are not treated as a spare part, but an integral member.

I think it is quite alarming how many families do not eat together. There was a statistic that I can't accurately quote, but was heading towards over half of families eating seperately or in front of the TV without any sort of conversation.

The loss of playing fields is surely a huge factor. No longer are children focusing their energy on sport which is incredibly important (fitness, team work etc.) to a persons development.

The whole system is rotten and we are approaching a point of no return.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

I love the way everyone is so keen to punish rather than look at the problems that lead to these crimes. The problems of poverty, low self worth, violence etc... are in my opinion the causes behind such social problems and if only we could address them then the crime rate, especially violent crime, would go down.

Surely they can go hand in hand? The causes need to be addressed, but there also need to be detterents in place. When did life become so worthless that a gang of teenagers are willing to risk killing someone who was trying to protect his property? I agree that the root cause needs to be addressed, but that should not take anything away from punishment as a disincentive.

Also love the use of the youth, a catch all word that now has nice demonising connotations. Funny that when a bunch of middle aged gangsters pull off a robbery or some blokes in their 20s and 30s have a big drunken fight they are not referred to by some generalised word or phrase.

It is a catch all phrase, as the generation being focused upon here ARE youths.

 

[Yorkie]

I love the way everyone is so keen to punish rather than look at the problems that lead to these crimes. The problems of poverty, low self worth, violence etc... are in my opinion the causes behind such social problems and if only we could address them then the crime rate, especially violent crime, would go down.

It was the fear of being punished that kept a lot of us on the straight and narrow. When people know they aren't going to get anything but a slap on the wrist then they don't care.

Youth is simply a generic name for young people ie youth club or youth court. There's no demonising there.

 

[Les Biehn]

I think it is quite alarming how many families do not eat together. There was a statistic that I can't accurately quote, but was heading towards over half of families eating seperately or in front of the TV without any sort of conversation.

The loss of playing fields is surely a huge factor. No longer are children focusing their energy on sport which is incredibly important (fitness, team work etc.) to a persons development.

The whole system is rotten and we are approaching a point of no return.

Not so sure there BoF. My family have hardly ever eaten meals together but we are all close and neither my sisters nor myself have ever been in trouble with the police, been in a fight etc...

Most of the nutters I knew when I was in my teams were all the ones who were good at sport, predominately football and rugby, and played on a regular basis.

I think the problem is how you speak to people, the morals that are imparted to them, listening to them and generally parents and teachers having the opportunity to educate and nurture their children. Trouble is social and economic circumstances mean this isn't always possible.

I also think a little bit of fear helps. I never got into much trouble when I was younger because I was a bit scared of what my old man would do. He never hit me or anything but I knew who was the boss. At the same time though he would listen to my side of the story so I didn't just feel I was punished for the sake of it.

 

[Les Biehn]

BoF and Yorkie I never said they shouldn't be punished my point was that people are so keen to suggest punishment without actually addressing the cause. It's like a hospital saying 'well we are gonna have at least a few cases of mrsa so we might as well not clean and just get in loads of antibiotics'.

So you don't think due to tabloid hysteria the word youth has developed some rather unsavoury connotations?

 

[Yorkie]

No, I don't. (referring to the tabloids)

I do think council funding being cut has had a lot of repercussions. As I said earlier I was a qualified youth worker for 17 years for Kirklees council (two evenings a week) in a very rough council estate. It was very hard work but rewarding.
The council stopped all funding for youth work saying it couldn't afford it. The youth club continued for a while (it was held in a small building attached to the local school) but volunteers stopped running it after a few years because the building was denied to us (apparently one or two kids had broken a window) and there was no funding for sports equipment which got broken)
Now there is nothing to do on that estate.

 

[Beach Hut]

Now there is nothing to do on that estate.

Which worries me as this was exactly how the riots started in the 80s all over England as youths were fed up with having nothing to do and felt so alienated from society.

We are possibly heading towards to same scenario

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Not so sure there BoF. My family have hardly ever eaten meals together but we are all close and neither my sisters nor myself have ever been in trouble with the police, been in a fight etc...

Most of the nutters I knew when I was in my teams were all the ones who were good at sport, predominately football and rugby, and played on a regular basis.

I think the problem is how you speak to people, the morals that are imparted to them, listening to them and generally parents and teachers having the opportunity to educate and nurture their children. Trouble is social and economic circumstances mean this isn't always possible.

I also think a little bit of fear helps. I never got into much trouble when I was younger because I was a bit scared of what my old man would do. He never hit me or anything but I knew who was the boss. At the same time though he would listen to my side of the story so I didn't just feel I was punished for the sake of it.

Of course, this theory doesn't apply to everyone, but it is an accepted fact that something as simple as not eating together is a by-product of the family breakdown. Not in all cases, of course.

The other theory, with regard to sport, is that children/teenagers are not able to 'tire themselves out'. Taking part can be a very good way of learning basic skills and has many benefits. Sport or fitness is a form of release. I love the way skateboarders are seen as the dregs of society by the adult population, but in my experience they are actually doing something that they enjoy and have something to focus on rather than hanging about causing trouble.

I agree that fear helps. I was petrified of my headmaster at my Prep-School. He was a lovely man, but he laid down the foundations and boundaries and formed a mutual respect. I would not have dared cross him or some other of the teachers. The sad thing is, there seems to be a severe lacking in support of teachers from parents. I know a fair amount of teachers from my Uni days and the general consensus is that they do not get the support to enforce a strict regime and the classes are too big to make huge inroads.

 

[Les Biehn]

I know a fair amount of teachers from my Uni days and the general consensus is that they do not get the support to enforce a strict regime and the classes are too big to make huge inroads.

Both my parents are teachers and I can wholeheartedly agree with you there.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

BoF and Yorkie I never said they shouldn't be punished my point was that people are so keen to suggest punishment without actually addressing the cause. It's like a hospital saying 'well we are gonna have at least a few cases of mrsa so we might as well not clean and just get in loads of antibiotics'.

So you don't think due to tabloid hysteria the word youth has developed some rather unsavoury connotations?

I think the word 'youth; has always had an unsavoury overtone and perhaps more so with the ever powerful media, but it is not just tabloid hysteria. The rise in gun crime and deaths in London is not just media spin, but a growing crisis. Statistics of how many children have/do carry knives is also alarming.

We are agreed Les. I didn't mention anything along the lines of the causes in my first post, but I agree that they must go hand in hand. That is not to say I haven't considered the causes of this sort of behaviour.

 

[goldstone]

Boot camp style punishment .. Rather than just have thenm sitting around in jail , make them do some suitable style supervised work , be it roadbuilding or other government funded projects .. Make them the souce of cheap labour and put them to use ..

Yes Very draconian , but extreme measures for extreme people !

Absolutely spot on. Put the bastards to work.

And bring back the stocks. I'm serious. Just imagine how small and stupid these people would feel being put on public display in the stocks on the village green (or the town equivalent). It might just be the thing to put them off re-offending.

 

[goldstone]

I also think a little bit of fear helps. I never got into much trouble when I was younger because I was a bit scared of what my old man would do. He never hit me or anything but I knew who was the boss. At the same time though he would listen to my side of the story so I didn't just feel I was punished for the sake of it.

Exactly.

Which is why kids need a father figure around. Someone to instil just a little bit of fear.