We must take back our streets...

[Gwylan]

Of course, on the whole it's the parents who are to blame, but we shouldn't give up on them just because they have a Chav Dad. If we can just capture their imaginations, just stir a bit of passion in them for the good things in life, thats how things like anti-social behaviour will be tackled.

I wouldn't bang on too much about chavs or dregs or whatever.

The place in Warrington where that poor geezer was killed wasn't a run-down estate, as has been made in clear in many reports (and Bozza's post).

And would you explain the dispersal notices aimed at group of young kids, pinned to lamp-posts in the Preston Park/varndean areas? With the price of housing touching a million quid, these kids aren't the products of 'Chav' dads.

 

[Sorrel]

Giving people free money to do nothing leads to a dependant useless section of society with no concept of the value of possessions, and the attitude that if you want something, you just take it, or it is given to you.

...

Add together this lack of understanding of the consequences of bad behaviour, together with an ineffectual punishment system, and free cash for the feckless and you get the shite we see around us every day.

I agree with these two points. Personally, I think reform should start in schools, as it's from there that the attitude that actions have no consequences first develops.

 

[the right footed denilson]

I wouldn't bang on too much about chavs or dregs or whatever.

The place in Warrington where that poor geezer was killed wasn't a run-down estate, as has been made in clear in many reports (and Bozza's post).

And would you explain the dispersal notices aimed at group of young kids, pinned to lamp-posts in the Preston Park/varndean areas? With the price of housing touching a million quid, these kids aren't the products of 'Chav' dads.

That depends- I've never thought of chav as being class based. Maybe i should have said 'bad'. My point really was that we need to bypass the parents and focus on the kids- let the kids educate their mums and dads if they have to.

 

[sir albion]

Its becoming beyond repair this country,the law here is pathetic and dicipline is none excistent,so that sums it up

 

[Mr C]

I think part of it comes from a lack of respect and lack of common sense.

Too many rules and regulations coupled with a compensation culture cause some of the problems.

Let me pose a question...

Those responsible for that man's MURDER... yes, he was murdered, are found and convicted beyond reasonable doubt. As punishment, they each have a limb amputated.

Would that scare others into not doing it?

 

[Sorrel]

I think part of it comes from a lack of respect and lack of common sense.

Too many rules and regulations coupled with a compensation culture cause some of the problems.

Let me pose a question...

Those responsible for that man's MURDER... yes, he was murdered, are found and convicted beyond reasonable doubt. As punishment, they each have a limb amputated.

Would that scare others into not doing it?

It would. People would be against it though, as it really is a punishment. It's also the sort of thing that Islamic law would provide...

 

[Freddie Goodwin.]

It's long overdue for the Govn to really get a grip on this and get an alround policy, including parenting skills and teaching kids 'respect' in schools.

Kids don't play out anymore, mainly because of the overblown fear of peado's (that's the likelyhood of an incident rather than the seriousness). That carries throught to those parents who'd like to run scouts/youth clubs/football teams being put off by all the red tape. I used to run a team and, in those days, as long as you seemed a 'decent sort' anyone could do it.

Kids no longer mix with adults. As an adult male, father & grandfather, i find it sad that I'd have to think twice about smiling at a kid on a bus or having a conversation, therefore all adult males are seen by some as 'evil'. This leads to a lack of understanding and respect.

Today, like most days, my trip on a bus was disrupted by some young girls playing their music loud on the bus. It's not bad enough that it's crap rap or R&B but it also has the quality of A £1 shop radio.

I don't think they were out to upset anyone but it's the general selfishness and uncaring that others on the bus might not want to hear it. And, it's always kids that smoke on a bus.

So, why don't adults turn around and have a word? Well, we all know why. You'd get a load of abuse and probably spat on if you get off 1st. should things escalate then you'd find yourself on a charge and, no doubt, on a newspaper bill board for assulting a 'child', and we all know what that image means to some.

In regards to bus behavior, i think the bus company should be able to withdraw bus ID's and thus the cheap fare privalidge.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

This is the man who died. At least he tried something for his family and neighbours, rather than hide away behind his curtains.

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/...objectid=19624185&siteid=50061-name_page.html

 

[Dr Bandler]

Actions

The government, and many people, are closing their eyes to what is happening and hoping it will go away. But it will not - it will continue to get worse until someone with balls decides to do something drastic. However there are answers.

Firstly, policing needs to be shaken up. We need police on the streets and we need them to stop worrying about being sued for rough actions. As criminals are getiing rougher and more violent, we have effectively emasculated our police force. We need to cut their paperwork, recruit enough and enforce zero tolerance on the streets (it works - see New York under Giuliani or Middlesborough under Robocop).

Secondly, the police need backing up by the criminal justice system. The current system is a joke. Build more prisons and young offender institutes if necessary. Then make sure judges and magistrates punish people properly. I am sick of reading of violent offences being dealt with leniently.

Thirdly, and here is the liberal bit, make the experience of prison a worthwhile one. Why does nobody suggest prisoners and youth offenders do public works like in US and Australia. And lets offer the chance of rehabilitation and improvement through learning. If they dont want it - OK, stay in jail. The experience of US boot camps for young offenders shows that they work best when a mentor stays in touch with the offender afterwards.

Finally, we must bring back discipline in schools. This means if a kid is expelled they go somewhere unpleasant - not just go and hang around the streets and commit crime. And if there parents don not like it hit them as well.

Of course all of this costs money. But is it more money than the government spend on forces in Iraq and Afghanistan? We must demand action. The first tenet of a civilised society should be the right to go about your life free from provocation and violence; in safety. NOT the rights of youths to do as the please and criminals to be free.

 

[Franks Wild Years]

A lot of the milder cases are tried in magistrates courts. Magistrates differ widely in their sentencing as there are choices. eg Community service or imprisonment.

How many people on Nsc would be prepared to train and become magistrates?

Funny enough Yorkie I have been thinking just that. Are you one ? I know nothing about the process you have to go through.

 

[Sorrel]

The government, and many people, are closing their eyes to what is happening and hoping it will go away. But it will not - it will continue to get worse until someone with balls decides to do something drastic. However there are answers.

Firstly, policing needs to be shaken up. We need police on the streets and we need them to stop worrying about being sued for rough actions. As criminals are getiing rougher and more violent, we have effectively emasculated our police force. We need to cut their paperwork, recruit enough and enforce zero tolerance on the streets (it works - see New York under Giuliani or Middlesborough under Robocop).

Secondly, the police need backing up by the criminal justice system. The current system is a joke. Build more prisons and young offender institutes if necessary. Then make sure judges and magistrates punish people properly. I am sick of reading of violent offences being dealt with leniently.

Thirdly, and here is the liberal bit, make the experience of prison a worthwhile one. Why does nobody suggest prisoners and youth offenders do public works like in US and Australia. And lets offer the chance of rehabilitation and improvement through learning. If they dont want it - OK, stay in jail. The experience of US boot camps for young offenders shows that they work best when a mentor stays in touch with the offender afterwards.

Finally, we must bring back discipline in schools. This means if a kid is expelled they go somewhere unpleasant - not just go and hang around the streets and commit crime. And if there parents don not like it hit them as well.

Of course all of this costs money. But is it more money than the government spend on forces in Iraq and Afghanistan? We must demand action. The first tenet of a civilised society should be the right to go about your life free from provocation and violence; in safety. NOT the rights of youths to do as the please and criminals to be free.

I agree with all this, as probably do a majority of the population. So the question is why can't any of the political parties get a grip on it?

 

[1959]

I agree with all this, as probably do a majority of the population. So the question is why can't any of the political parties get a grip on it?

Because it's expensive and, in this country, people will never vote for something that puts their taxes up, however small the rise and however beneficial it might be for all.

 

[cheeseroll]

It's long overdue for the Govn to really get a grip on this and get an alround policy, including parenting skills and teaching kids 'respect' in schools.

Kids don't play out anymore, mainly because of the overblown fear of peado's (that's the likelyhood of an incident rather than the seriousness). That carries throught to those parents who'd like to run scouts/youth clubs/football teams being put off by all the red tape. I used to run a team and, in those days, as long as you seemed a 'decent sort' anyone could do it.

Kids no longer mix with adults. As an adult male, father & grandfather, i find it sad that I'd have to think twice about smiling at a kid on a bus or having a conversation, therefore all adult males are seen by some as 'evil'. This leads to a lack of understanding and respect.

Today, like most days, my trip on a bus was disrupted by some young girls playing their music loud on the bus. It's not bad enough that it's crap rap or R&B but it also has the quality of A £1 shop radio.

I don't think they were out to upset anyone but it's the general selfishness and uncaring that others on the bus might not want to hear it. And, it's always kids that smoke on a bus.

So, why don't adults turn around and have a word? Well, we all know why. You'd get a load of abuse and probably spat on if you get off 1st. should things escalate then you'd find yourself on a charge and, no doubt, on a newspaper bill board for assulting a 'child', and we all know what that image means to some.

In regards to bus behavior, i think the bus company should be able to withdraw bus ID's and thus the cheap fare privalidge.

In a nutshell as to why we have a bigger problem than other European nations.

 

[Sorrel]

Because it's expensive and, in this country, people will never vote for something that puts their taxes up, however small the rise and however beneficial it might be for all.

If we saw visible changes, people might be prepared to pay...

 

[cheeseroll]

Because it's expensive and, in this country, people will never vote for something that puts their taxes up, however small the rise and however beneficial it might be for all.

Dr Bandler already mentions that this could hardly be more expensive than pointless efforts abroad. I'm not sure of the financial equation but if the situation gets much worse then the public needs to demand that it is seen to.

Sadly it is quite probable that many more innocent lives will be lost until it is seen to be something that is needed to be acted upon.

 

[Dr Bandler]

Because it's expensive and, in this country, people will never vote for something that puts their taxes up, however small the rise and however beneficial it might be for all.

I dont know - surely if things are bad enough they will. They voted for Giuliani in New York when he increased police numbers and introduced zero tolerance. They also voted for Schwarzenegger in California and he built more prisons.

How bad do things have to become before we demand action. A problem is that Labour are 10 points ahead and so there is no imperative for them to do anything. The Tories Law and Order policies would not be much different anyway.

Very depressing. Although I hated her policies it needs someone with the detrmination of Thatcher to push this through against theorising civil servants, unrepresentative but loud civil rights groups, and cynical lawyers.

 

[cheeseroll]

I dont know - surely if things are bad enough they will. They voted for Giuliani in New York when he increased police numbers and introduced zero tolerance. They also voted for Schwarzenegger in California and he built more prisons.

How bad do things have to become before we demand action. A problem is that Labour are 10 points ahead and so there is no imperative for them to do anything. The Tories Law and Order policies would not be much different anyway.

Very depressing. Although I hated her policies it needs someone with the detrmination of Thatcher to push this through against theorising civil servants, unrepresentative but loud civil rights groups, and cynical lawyers.

Not sure about that as all i remember were riots all over, the result of Thatchers Suss policy. But now im turning in circles, i agreed with everything in your earlier post, but how to implement this may lead to more problems than we are trying to remove..

 

[Peteinblack]

I don't have any answers, but I do think this is one of the best debates I've read on NSC.

 

[Mr C]

If only the Conservatives actually adopted a tough, proper policy on this, they'd do very well.

But they don't have the balls.

 

[1959]

I dont know - surely if things are bad enough they will. They voted for Giuliani in New York when he increased police numbers and introduced zero tolerance. They also voted for Schwarzenegger in California and he built more prisons.

Yes, but NY isn't like other places, and certainly isn't like the rest of the US. As far as I remember, Schwarzeneggar was voted in on a promise to lower taxes. It's just that he ended up having to raise them anyway, and now everybody hates him over there.

How bad do things have to become before we demand action. A problem is that Labour are 10 points ahead and so there is no imperative for them to do anything. The Tories Law and Order policies would not be much different anyway.

Very depressing. Although I hated her policies it needs someone with the determination of Thatcher to push this through against theorising civil servants, unrepresentative but loud civil rights groups, and cynical lawyers.

She wasn't able to push through everything she was determined about. Remember her hatred of football and the disastrous ID card scheme that everyone outside football was in favour of? Oh, and the ordinary fans' friend Ken Bates, of course, who seemed to want watchtowers and sirens replacing the floodlights, and packs of wild wolves in trenches around the pitch. I might be exaggerating a little there.
I remember one election, possibly during Thatcher's time, when the Liberals put in their manifesto that they would put tax up by 1 penny in order to get the NHS back to the way it should be. Needless to say, they didn't win.
Every politician in this country knows that a promise to put up taxes is an immediate vote-loser. Doesn't matter how much or how little. If Labour, in their next election manifesto, proposed a 1p rise on the basic rate in order to 'reclaim our streets' or whatever, the Daily Mail, Express, Telegraph and The Sun would go absolutely mental. They'd be out on their ear in no time. If the Tories did the same, they'd lose by a bigger margin than in 1997.