Up close and intimate with convertible seating/terracing

[brighton2win]

"A report commissioned by Trafford Borough Council examined the safety of supporters standing in seated areas at Old Trafford at different times. It concluded, not surprisingly, that the most dangerous time is at moments of excitement, such as when a goal is scored. The next most dangerous time is when fans are leaving the stadium, and the least dangerous is passive standing during normal play. It is only during the latter, least dangerous time that attempts are made to force supporters to sit down".


Hmmmm...

shows what a joke the rules/stewards are.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

My impression is that Dick is certainly open to the idea, Martin Perry opposed, and I know for a fact that chief security officer Richard Hebbard has kittens if you even mention it, because I have done so several times in his presence. The fact that nearly every other country in Europe has terraces doesn't cut any ice at all.

We'll see....

Why is Perry opposed? What are his grounds?

There does seem to be an openess to discuss this issue at Government level now Blair has gone....it would be nice if our club could be at the forefront of this. If the club is as open and democratic as it likes to think it is, and the supporters wish to have terracing, then the club should at very least support an initiative to bring back terracing. Especially after all the support all of us have given the board over the past decade.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

It isn't simply up to the minister. The Government will have to lay new regulations in Parliament and any MP will be able to force a vote on the matter. Before that of course there would need to be a huge consultation.

 

[The Large One]

Why is Perry opposed? What are his grounds?

There does seem to be an openess to discuss this issue at Government level now Blair has gone....it would be nice if our club could be at the forefront of this. If the club is as open and democratic as it likes to think it is, and the supporters wish to have terracing, then the club should at very least support an initiative to bring back terracing. Especially after all the support all of us have given the board over the past decade.

I fully agree, and we have - in building a new stadium soon - the perfect opportunity to be at the forefront of any progressive moves back to terracing.

However, I suspect that the politics of it are that we have been dicked around so much by others regarding the stadium that we need to get the damn thing built before we start talking about changes in law and thumbing our noses to the Football Licensing Authority.

The point is, the club might be open to a debate and would take our considerations on board. However, they would count for little if it increases any sense of problems we might end up encountering between now and opening the new stadium.

But taking an active part in any Government consultation process on this issue would be not only desirable, but may even be a necessity. If the Brighton fans - easily the single most organised fans for 'political' campaigns in the country - don't take up the fight, who will?

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

I fully agree, and we have - in building a new stadium soon - the perfect opportunity to be at the forefront of any progressive moves back to terracing.

However, I suspect that the politics of it are that we have been dicked around so much by others regarding the stadium that we need to get the damn thing built before we start talking about changes in law and thumbing our noses to the Football Licensing Authority.

The point is, the club might be open to a debate and would take our considerations on board. However, they would count for little if it increases any sense of problems we might end up encountering between now and opening the new stadium.

But taking an active part in any Government consultation process on this issue would be not only desirable, but may even be a necessity. If the Brighton fans - easily the single most organised fans for 'political' campaigns in the country - don't take up the fight, who will?

I agree, I think the club are far more worried about getting the stadium built after all these years than having terraces in the stadium.
However this does not mean that the club cannot build the stands behind the goal with a view to converting them to safe standing areas in the future.
Herr Tub Thumper said that in Hamburg that they convert the terraces to seats for European games. Why couldn't we have these type of seats installed, if legislation is then changed then hey presto we can convert them to safe standing areas.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

It will be interesting to see what the football league's real opinion would be on terracing. I'm not convinced that they will be for it. All seater stadia IMO has played a part in turning football from the preserve of men between 15 and 55 to all the family. Now I know the argument will be that this will only be a small section of the ground but it will change the ambience of the ground, which in turn might make parents think twice about taking their kids.

Awaits flaming

 

[The Large One]

It will be interesting to see what the football league's real opinion would be on terracing. I'm not convinced that they will be for it. All seater stadia IMO has played a part in turning football from the preserve of men between 15 and 55 to all the family. Now I know the argument will be that this will only be a small section of the ground but it will change the ambience of the ground, which in turn might make parents think twice about taking their kids.

Awaits flaming

No need.

This all has very little do with individual safety and everything to do with social control. In other words, if some can't be trusted to stand up and behave, we can all sit down.

We have been turned into the robotic, antiseptic puppets whose principle purpose is to empty our wallets into their pockets. Personally, I'd like to trust my own sense of safety and welfare at a football match. If I genuinely felt unsafe and worried about standing at a football ground, I wouldn't do it. I'd sit down. Having paid for the privilege of entering the ground, I'll decide which posture to adopt - if you know what I mean. Physically, it's standing upright. Metaphorically, they'd rather have us bent over with our trousers down.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

No need.

This all has very little do with individual safety and everything to do with social control. In other words, if some can't be trusted to stand up and behave, we can all sit down.

We have been turned into the robotic, antiseptic puppets whose principle purpose is to empty our wallets into their pockets. Personally, I'd like to trust my own sense of safety and welfare at a football match. If I genuinely felt unsafe and worried about standing at a football ground, I wouldn't do it. I'd sit down. Having paid for the privilege of entering the ground, I'll decide which posture to adopt - if you know what I mean. Physically, it's standing upright. Metaphorically, they'd rather have us bent over with our trousers down.

That wasn't the point of my post. If clubs believe that by letting people stand then the attendance will reduce then they won't do it. simple as

 

[Silvanus]

I much prefer terracing to seating. At least when we go to Yeovil we'll be able to stand.

 

[Scoffers]

For those of you who used to frequent the North Stand, as a lot of us did, the surge moments used to be scary for me (as a 15 year old), the atmosphere was brilliant, and I loved it, but there were occasions when it got a bit sticky.

I also remember the pompey away match where they crammed us all in and I can recall getting badly squashed, along with a lot of others. This would have been around the mid/late 80s (can't remember the exact year).

 

[Kukev31]

I see no rean why legislation can't be changed just to allow fans to stand up behind their seat. That way, no expense to the club and we get what we want.

 

[Cadiz Seagull]

There are two chances of terracing coming back. None, and four fifths of f**k all.

Much as I would like to see it.

2 main reasons (a) people are paranoid about the fall out when there is a problem (and there will be) and (b) clubs can charge more for a seat.

I much prefer to stand but it ain't gonna happen in any of the higher levels of football in UK.

 

[Storer68]

I know this is an old arguement and has been discussed to death BUT I had the good fortune to have a close look at the terrace at Hamburg's ground this week. It's simplicity just frustrated me that English football cannot do the same.

It is a genius piece of engineering. Every other step in the terrace is aluminium and on a big hinge. When the club need to convert it to an all-seater stand the aluminium step simply gets lifted up and back onto the step above. Under and attached to the inside of the step is a comfy seat...the back rest is sprung and flips up. It takes as long as it took you to read this to convert one row from one to the other. The stand itself does not differ in construction to a regular one either. A common arguement I have heard in England is that convertible stands are impractical....having seen Hamburg's terrace I cannot see any basis for this idea.

Unless things have changed my understanding is that all-seating isnt law, simply a Taylor report recommendation/guideline which the football authorities use for licensing reasons. If someone had the will and the balls to challenge it we could all have terracing again. Everyone in England (including Martin Perry) seems to shy away from this challenge though.

As I say, aplogies for dragging up an old arguement but when you have seen it in action you just wonder why oh why cant we have it as well.

Because its bloody expensive to install and operate.

and it needs a HUGE amount of land to build stands that can accommodate it. It can increase the "footprint" of a stadium by as much as 75%, which would have taken us well into Falmer Parosh Council territory.......... Its a good system there no denying it but permanent seats are cheaper to install, better revenue generators and are required by LAW in this country.

and all seaster stadia for the top two divisons is the LAW as adminsiterd by the FLA under the Football Spectators Act 1989 and The Football Spectators (Designation of Football Matches in England and Wales) Order 2000 defines a designated match as any association football match which is played either at Wembley stadium, the National Stadium in Cardiff, or at a sports ground in England or Wales which is registered with the Football League or the Football Association Premier League as the home ground of a club which is a member of the Football League or the Football Association Premier League at the time the match is played.

Before granting, amending, refusing or revoking a licence, the FLA is required to have regard (among other relevant circumstances) to whether the equipment provided, procedures used and other arrangements enforced at the premises are such as are reasonably required to prevent or minimise the effect of offences at designated football matches; and to other such considerations as the Secretary of State determines.

The primary purpose of the licensing scheme is to enforce the Government’s policy that all clubs in the FA Premier League and Football League Championship must have all-seated stadia and that any standing accommodation in Leagues 1 and 2 is of the prescribed standard.

 

[Storer68]

This is from the Sir Norman Chester centre for Football stadies at Leices University.........


8. The All Seater Stadia Debate and the Symbolic Meaning of Stadia
"There is no panacea which will achieve total safety and cure all problems of behaviour and crowd control. But I am satisfied that seating does more to achieve those objectives than any other measure." (Taylor 1990).

8.1 The move to all-seater stadia is seen by many in the game as the necessary way forward. Soon after the Hillsborough disaster, Liverpool Football Club announced plans to convert its Anfield Stadium to seating. Announcements by both UEFA and FIFA (the European and World governing bodies for football) indicated the determination of both organisations to stage, by 1993, all major games played under their auspices in grounds where all fans are seated. The trend towards the elimination of terracing was seen by the authorities in England as an important step towards increasing spectator safety and crowd control.

8.2 However, despite the arguments above, the opinions of design experts and football supporters themselves are not so clear-cut. Simon Inglis, a writer and researcher on football stadia, has argued that many of the major stadia in the world at present still have terracing and it is the behaviour, management and control of spectators on terracing which are crucial to explaining tragedies like Heysel and Hillsborough. Early research on this issue undertaken on the views of members of the Football Supporters Association at the Sir Norman Chester Centre for Football Research at the University of Leicester in 1989 indicated that a majority of these 'activist' fans were opposed to all-seater stadia. However, given certain qualifications on issues such as price and covering, the opposition to all-seater stadia even among these committed fans does diminish quite considerably.

8.3 More recent research suggests that, in the main, most fans are reasonably happy with new stadia developments, but that a number of issues do concern them. For example, the National FA Premier League Fan Survey (2001) suggests that most fans like the new facilities at football and agree that hooliganism has been reduced inside top grounds and crowd management has improved. However, supporters are also very concerned about the lack of 'atmosphere' in some seated grounds and they are also anxious about the ticket pricing at some venues. At some top clubs close to a majority of fans now want some terraces; fans have also identified the possible advantages and disadvantages of a return of some terracing.

8.4 One of the reasons for the early resistance to all-seater grounds was, of course, this fear of losing the 'terrace culture' experienced when standing at a football match. Many fans feared losing the unique atmosphere of passionate and committed support associated especially with football in British stadia. A poll in the early 1990s in 'France Football' rated English football grounds very low on architectural merit, but highest on stadium atmosphere. Many clubs have already developed all-seater family enclosures aiming to encourage more families and women to attend matches and thus reduce the potential for hostility by 'feminising' the atmosphere at matches. Concerns about safety in football stadia in England are also very high now following the Hillsborough disaster. Balancing up the demands for safety and excitement inside stadia is a key question for fans and administrators these days (Frosdick, 1996). However, 'A National Survey of Female Football Fans' conducted by the Centre for Football Research at Leicester University (Woodhouse, 1991) found that many women who already attend football show the same resistance to change in stadium design and facilities as do their male counterparts. In the 2000 FA Premier League National Fan survey (SNCCFR, 2000) 24% of all supporters still wanted to stand. At Leeds United 39% of fans preferred standing. Ex-Minister for Sport, Kate Hoey continues the campaign for standing areas in 2002 on the basis of offering more choice for fans and that safe standing areas - as in Germany and the lower divisions in England for example - are possible. Some top German clubs remove seats for domestic matches but replace them for European competition. The FLA rejected the comparision with Germany, however, arguing that fan cultures in England and Germany are very different.

8.5 In addition to these issues, many fans also have a considerable emotional investment in their football stadia. Stadia have an enormous symbolic value to fans (Williams and Giulianotti, 1994). Many working class men in particular experience some of their most important collective experiences in the local football ground. The ground also 'carries' the memories of earlier generations of supporters. Sons (and some daughters) follow in their father's footsteps by standing in the same space as did their parent(s). Fans often feel they 'own' certain parts of the stadium and they become strongly attached to the idiosyncracies which marked earlier generations of English football grounds. Moving grounds or demolishing old stands runs the risk of producing sterile, modern, rationalised 'non-places' which are cold and anonymous and which evoke little of the memory or the great 'community' traditions of clubs (Canter, et al 1989; Duke, 1994).

 

[1959]

For those of you who used to frequent the North Stand, as a lot of us did, the surge moments used to be scary for me (as a 15 year old), the atmosphere was brilliant, and I loved it, but there were occasions when it got a bit sticky.

I also remember the pompey away match where they crammed us all in and I can recall getting badly squashed, along with a lot of others. This would have been around the mid/late 80s (can't remember the exact year).

Modern terracing, of the German variety, makes surges of the kind featured in the old North Stand, completely impossible. Mass crushes, like that one at Pompey and the one at Hillsborough, are also rendered impossible.
There is actually a very valid argument that they are safer than all-seater areas at particular times during a match.

 

[Storer68]

I see no rean why legislation can't be changed just to allow fans to stand up behind their seat. That way, no expense to the club and we get what we want.

i see plenty of reasons why the legislation won't be changed.

Selected Football Stadium Tragedies in Britain

Date Stadium What happened? Outcome
1902 Ibrox Park Terrace collapsed 50 killed, 500 injured
1914 Hillsborough Wall collapsed 80 injured
1914 Turf Moor Spectator crushing 1 killed
1946 Burnden Park Spectator crushing 33 killed, 400 injured
1957 Shawfield Barrier collapsed 1 killed, 50 injured
1961 Ibrox Park Barrier collapsed 2 killed
1971 Ibrox Park Crushing/barrier collapse 66 killed, hundreds injured
1985 Valley Parade Fire 56 killed, hundreds injured
1985 St. Andrews Wall collapsed 1 killed
1989 Hillsborough Spectator crushing 96 killed, hundreds injured


and of course this omitts the massive overcrowding at Wembey for the cup finals of 1923 and 1989.

and doesn't mention Heysel

 

[The Large One]

i see plenty of reasons why the legislation won't be changed.

Selected Football Stadium Tragedies in Britain

Date Stadium What happened? Outcome
1902 Ibrox Park Terrace collapsed 50 killed, 500 injured
1914 Hillsborough Wall collapsed 80 injured
1914 Turf Moor Spectator crushing 1 killed
1946 Burnden Park Spectator crushing 33 killed, 400 injured
1957 Shawfield Barrier collapsed 1 killed, 50 injured
1961 Ibrox Park Barrier collapsed 2 killed
1971 Ibrox Park Crushing/barrier collapse 66 killed, hundreds injured
1985 Valley Parade Fire 56 killed, hundreds injured
1985 St. Andrews Wall collapsed 1 killed
1989 Hillsborough Spectator crushing 96 killed, hundreds injured


and of course this omitts the massive overcrowding at Wembey for the cup finals of 1923 and 1989.

and doesn't mention Heysel

Hillsborough aside (in fact, you could arguably remove Hillsborough from the argument), how many of those disasters were as a result purely of there being terraces rather than seating? Most of those disasters could easily have happened in a seated area. Most of them were either a result of too many people in too small a space, or down to poor quality structures.

Bradford, incidentally, was in a seated (albiet tinderbox timber seated) stand. Fewer would have died if that had been terracing. In fact, if there had been concrete terracing, there would not have been a fire to such an extent.

 

[Storer68]

"Most of them were either a result of too many people in too small a space, or down to poor quality structures."

which is why terracing is inherently unsafe. Heysel being a pertinet case in point.

Poiunt taken about Bradford tho.

 

[The Large One]

"Most of them were either a result of too many people in too small a space, or down to poor quality structures."

which is why terracing is inherently unsafe. Heysel being a pertinet case in point.

Poiunt taken about Bradford tho.

A properly maintained terrace cannot be compared to the terracing at Heysel.

Even then, the Heysel disaster did not happen just BECAUSE there was terracing. It happened because of, among other things, poor policing, poor segregation, riotous assembly and poor structures - a combination of which led to the 56 deaths. An equally poorly maintained seated area would not necessarily have resolved the issues regarding the poor policing, segregation and behaviour.

 

[Kukev31]

There have been several incidents in Africa very similar to what happened at Hillsborough happen in this century. They all occurred in all-seater stadium, it isn't the stand it's how it's controlled.

We aren't asking for a return to old-style terracing, we want a well managed safe system, which has worked well in Germany without any incidents.