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[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...



beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,477

its screwed as its being used as a inquiry on goverment. i saw there are calls to question Osborne on his budgets and their impact. its a circus that will be in town for years. other countries have opend and closed inquiries already, keep narrow remit: review of procedures, lessons learnt, done.
 




ken tiler

Active member
Nov 24, 2007
328
Brighton
understand that, but this is seperate from the government, even accounting for view the Treasury and BoE seperation is tenuous. i have read various BoE papers on money creation. this is where the MMT lobby go off and say therefore all spending is created from bank actions, so we can spend infinite money.

the other side of the balance sheet does not need to be government borrowing. in BoE and commercial lending it isn't.
MMT economists don’t argue that governments should spend infinite amounts of public money as this would be inflationary. The spending however is not constrained by the need to fund expenditure either by taxation or “borrowing”. They argue that inflation can be controlled with a job guarantee and tweaks to taxation rather than by interest rates.
 


The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 11, 2016
24,851
West is BEST
its screwed as its being used as a inquiry on goverment. i saw there are calls to question Osborne on his budgets and their impact. its a circus that will be in town for years. other countries have opend and closed inquiries already, keep narrow remit: review of procedures, lessons learnt, done.
Most other countries didn’t have a corrupt, filibustering government that broke its own rules with a “let the bodies pile high” approach to the pandemic.
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,477
MMT economists don’t argue that governments should spend infinite amounts of public money as this would be inflationary. The spending however is not constrained by the need to fund expenditure either by taxation or “borrowing”. They argue that inflation can be controlled with a job guarantee and tweaks to taxation rather than by interest rates.
of course, we should be increasing taxes right now to deal with inflation. cant think why the politicans aren't going for that. :jester:
 


Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
3,028
Uckfield
“Tiresome “ but correct MMT advocate here. Firstly, The Bank of England is a branch of government and secondly it is legally required to issue money for government expenditure when instructed to do so by Parliament.
I made a similar point to the other fella who pushes MMT incessantly a few months back that I'm going to ask you shortly. Never did get a reply from the other fella, which I took to assume (given he was still banging on about MMT answering other peoples easier questions) that the answer would have been bad for MMT.

For MMT to work, surely it needs *global* financial markets to (almost universally) agree that it is a correct, and best possible, theory for managing government finances (those with a fiat currency). Can MMT work without that agreement in global financial markets that it is a workable theory? It doesn't look that way ... or at least, not as a 'light switch' change over from historic monetary theory (Truss tried a light switch change and got electrocuted). Maybe as a gradual shift over a prolonged period of time we might see it shift from "theory" to "in practice". But it's not there yet.

And that is what makes that other person who tediously promotes MMT so annoying: he approaches it as if it's already proven beyond doubt and we should all just believe it. Problem is, it isn't. There's more economists out there who think MMT would fail than who think it would succeed.
 




Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
I agree it's a slightly crude yardstick, however, Cameron came to power on a ticket to reduce the deficit and used that to inflict 10 years of austerity on us.

Also, last November we spent 7.3bn on interest payments - a record. To put that into perspective it would cost us 4bn to give Nurses and other NHS workers the pay rise they need - almost HALF the interest payment for JUST ONE MONTH. The cost of Tory failure
It didn’t help when we lost the Triple A rating so paying more and more interest.
 


Since1982

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2006
1,511
Burgess Hill
That still leaves a sea of mid sussex as well as Kent and Surrey which will look blue. Even when Blair was winning stupid majorities, many of those seats were rock solid tory
Mid Sussex has a strong chance of going Lib Dem. The boundary has been redrawn, the strongest Tory vote has gone to the new EG and Uckfield constituency which is where the current Mid Sussex MP is scuttling off to. HH and BH went Lib Dem at the last local elections, Hassocks and Hurst are being folded into Mid Sussex and they are Lib Dem as well. Plus Tories lost control of Mid Sussex DC last month having had all 52 seats as recently as 2015. The tide is turning.
 






Half Time Pies

Well-known member
Sep 7, 2003
1,421
Brighton
understand that, but this is seperate from the government, even accounting for view the Treasury and BoE seperation is tenuous. i have read various BoE papers on money creation. this is where the MMT lobby go off and say therefore all spending is created from bank actions, so we can spend infinite money.

the other side of the balance sheet does not need to be government borrowing. in BoE and commercial lending it isn't.
Ive never heard a MMT economist say that you can spend infinite money, you can't without potentially causing inflation.

Reserves (digital money) are simply deposit balances held at the central bank. By definition, only the central bank can provide central bank deposit accounts and therefore, it follows that only the central bank can provide reserves.

The mechanism by which the Bank of England creates reserves is either by purchasing government bonds (which create an asset on its balance sheet) or by making a direct loan to the government (shown also on the asset side of the balance sheet as ways and means - essentially the governments overdraft facility), in both cases the reserves created are shown on the liability side of the balance sheet. To create physical cash the BofE just takes a portion of its reserves and converts it to notes and coins.

Essentially when a central bank issues reserves, the main counterpart asset on the central bank balance sheet is generally some form of government financing.

I have paraphrased most of the above from this article on the BofE website: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/m...s-balance-sheet-speech-by-gertjan-vlieghe.pdf
 
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Bodian

Well-known member
May 3, 2012
12,383
Cumbria
Mid Sussex has a strong chance of going Lib Dem. The boundary has been redrawn, the strongest Tory vote has gone to the new EG and Uckfield constituency which is where the current Mid Sussex MP is scuttling off to. HH and BH went Lib Dem at the last local elections, Hassocks and Hurst are being folded into Mid Sussex and they are Lib Dem as well. Plus Tories lost control of Mid Sussex DC last month having had all 52 seats as recently as 2015. The tide is turning.
It's quite funny up here. The new boundaries have sort of split the old core votes so that each half of a staunchly labour area has been stuck with a tory traditional, in my patch, we've been Lib Dem since 2005, so they've added the blue rural heartland - which would make it pretty close. But, because of the general swing away from the Tories, they are actually in danger of having no MPs in the county - much like when splitting into two unitaries last year - they lost all control quite spectacularly. Looks like we may go from 5 Tories and a Lib Dem, to no Tories at all. What a shame. And presumably completely the opposite of their hoped for outcome.

According to Electoral Calculus, Labour have a 91% chance of winning Trudy Harrison's current seat. Good.
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,477
Ive never heard a MMT economist say that you can spend infinite money, you can't without potentially causing inflation.

Reserves (digital money) are simply deposit balances held at the central bank. By definition, only the central bank can provide central bank deposit accounts and therefore, it follows that only the central bank can provide reserves.

The mechanism by which the Bank of England creates reserves is either by purchasing government bonds (which create an asset on its balance sheet) or by making a direct loan to the government (shown also on the asset side of the balance sheet as ways and means - essentially the governments overdraft facility), in both cases the reserves created are shown on the liability side of the balance sheet. To create physical cash the BofE just takes a portion of its reserves and converts it to notes and coins.

Essentially when a central bank issues reserves, the main counterpart asset on the central bank balance sheet is generally some form of government financing.

I have paraphrased most of the above from this article on the BofE website: https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/-/m...s-balance-sheet-speech-by-gertjan-vlieghe.pdf
appreciate the link. the comment on infinte money was flippant, though this is a logical conclusion if taxes and debt aren't needed, gov can just ask the bank to issue money to them.
 






A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
18,598
Deepest, darkest Sussex
That still leaves a sea of mid sussex as well as Kent and Surrey which will look blue. Even when Blair was winning stupid majorities, many of those seats were rock solid tory
I’m not expecting it but I wouldn’t be that shocked if one of Horsham or Mid-Sussex went yellow, both saw strong returns in the locals (Horsham now a Lib Dem council I believe), it would need a lot to go against the Tories and no mini-revival, but it’s not as impossible as I think it might have appeared a decade ago.
 


A1X

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 1, 2017
18,598
Deepest, darkest Sussex
Not even that odious criminal **** Zahawi ? Oh no, he's calling for an abolition of inheritance tax.
One of the few genuinely progressive taxes out there, you can see why they hate it
 




BrianB

Sleepy Mid Sussex
Nov 14, 2020
427
Mid Sussex has a strong chance of going Lib Dem. The boundary has been redrawn, the strongest Tory vote has gone to the new EG and Uckfield constituency which is where the current Mid Sussex MP is scuttling off to. HH and BH went Lib Dem at the last local elections, Hassocks and Hurst are being folded into Mid Sussex and they are Lib Dem as well. Plus Tories lost control of Mid Sussex DC last month having had all 52 seats as recently as 2015. The tide is turning.
So mimsey is running away again ? . She only became my mp in 2019 !....
I suppose we shouldn't be surprised considering the wasteland her childrens father has left in Burgess Hill..
 




Since1982

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2006
1,511
Burgess Hill
So mimsey is running away again ? . She only became my mp in 2019 !....
I suppose we shouldn't be surprised considering the wasteland her childrens father has left in Burgess Hill..
Absolutely. Ran from Eastleigh when she knew she would lose and doing it again. She waited to see how the local election results panned out and then made her choice.
 






zefarelly

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 7, 2003
22,060
Sussex, by the sea
But didn't Thatcher sell all our nationalised industries and the council housing stock at rock bottom prices
I think you'l find that's been swept under the carpet But was actually Fantastic for the few, not the many. I think Jeremy Corbyn was a new MP back then. Therefore Must be his fault. . . . Yep. . . Just checked the Daily Mail news database. . . . Corbyn did it.

Any way, carry on struggling. Peasants.
 




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