The Ukraine/Russia Situation

[Czechmate]

Harold Wilson ?

Good for him if he was , but I was too young for politics at that age so can't comment .

 

[vegster]

Good news, Mr Putin has agreed to stop the war he started and is generously giving his forces three days to tidy up the border and push on a few more Kilometres. I bet there is absolutely no mention of any UN peacekeepers being allowed anywhere near the situation though.

 

[Questions]

I always thought that when the Ukraine came out of the USSR they took a lot of military might with them include most of the Black sea fleet. I don't think the separatists could ever be a threat without Putin.
So I say..............Vladimar..... Nooooooo.

 

[supaseagull]

If ever anyone wants to see proof of how close we are to being drawn into a Europe wide conflict then check out the number of increased air defence drills the RAF are taking part in and the amount of times Russian aircraft have wandered into European sovereign state airspace.

You're only being told what the government want you to hear.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I always thought that when the Ukraine came out of the USSR they took a lot of military might with them include most of the Black sea fleet. I don't think the separatists could ever be a threat without Putin.
So I say..............Vladimar..... Nooooooo.

They did indeed.

However,

(1) they gave up all their nukes in exchange for international agreements garanteeing their territory ( hahahahaha - worth nothing in the end ).

(2) sold off a lot of the military hardware to dodgy Africans, with the kleptocrats in charge trousering the cash.


2 massive mistakes really, as Putin would not have invaded if they still had the nukes.

 

[Questions]

They did indeed.

However,

(1) they gave up all their nukes in exchange for international agreements garanteeing their territory ( hahahahaha - worth nothing in the end ).

(2) sold off a lot of the military hardware to dodgy Africans, with the kleptocrats in charge trousering the cash.


2 massive mistakes really, as Putin would not have invaded if they still had the nukes.

I'm always in two minds over Russia. I've admired them, feared them, and loathed them all at different times.

 

[Czechmate]

I'm always in two minds over Russia. I've admired them, feared them, and loathed them all at different times.

Yep (Soviet Union) , lost 21-28 million soldiers during the second world war (many millions more than any other country) against the cream of the German army sometimes in freezing conditions , liberated Auschwitz and saved about 7,000 Jews (and Putin was not even invited to the anniversary ) , asked for help from the US and the UK in 1942 , but no help was given . They have always been an independent country and had to do things on their own , you can see in a way why they act like they do .

Then you have Stalin of course , so I see your different points !

 

[Uncle Buck]

Yep (Soviet Union) , lost 21-28 million soldiers during the second world war (many millions more than any other country) against the cream of the German army sometimes in freezing conditions , liberated Auschwitz and saved about 7,000 Jews (and Putin was not even invited to the anniversary ) , asked for help from the US and the UK in 1942 , but no help was given . They have always been an independent country and had to do things on their own , you can see in a way why they act like they do .

Then you have Stalin of course , so I see your different points !

Well they did side with Germany in 1939.

We did offer aid help via Archangel, once we were on the same side. However we would not open up a second front until we were ready.

They went against agreements regarding Poland etc.

Katyn Forest is not one of their finest moments...

Etc etc etc.

 

[Questions]

Yep (Soviet Union) , lost 21-28 million soldiers during the second world war (many millions more than any other country) against the cream of the German army sometimes in freezing conditions , liberated Auschwitz and saved about 7,000 Jews (and Putin was not even invited to the anniversary ) , asked for help from the US and the UK in 1942 , but no help was given . They have always been an independent country and had to do things on their own , you can see in a way why they act like they do .

I didn't know that Putin had not received an invitation to the anniversary. That is shocking. I think it was the Ukranian part of the Red Army that reached Aushwitz first.
Going off on a slight tangent- as I'm prone to do - my friend used to do guard duty at Spandeau and at one time Rudolph Hess was 'shared' between the East and West. When us and the Yanks were there he had most things he wanted but when the Russians did there bit he was stripped of all privalages, such was their hatred of the Germans. Not surprising really when like you say they lost so many millions.

 

[Czechmate]

That Crimea vote was not exactly fair or legitimate.

If that wasn't fair or legitimate , what would you call the coup that happened in Kiev ? Whatever way the West tries to dress it up , it was a coup ! Doesn't matter what contract the president changed , is that really the way to go about it ?

 

[Uncle Buck]

If that wasn't fair or legitimate , what would you call the coup that happened in Kiev ? Whatever way the West tries to dress it up , it was a coup ! Doesn't matter what contract the president changed , is that really the way to go about it ?

At least the coup on the whole was by the Ukrainians. The annex of Crimea was akin to Hitler's actions with the Sudatan Germans and once again the west did nothing.

As I have said, if people want to be under Russian control, they should head over the Russian border, not allow Russia to grab land.

What next? The Germans wanting Silesia back?

The Poles wanting Western Ukraine back?

I know this is unlikely as the Russians drove the ethnic Germans over the current German border in 1945 and the same with the Poles in western Ukraine.

 

[Czechmate]

I didn't know that Putin had not received an invitation to the anniversary. That is shocking. I think it was the Ukranian part of the Red Army that reached Aushwitz first.
Going off on a slight tangent- as I'm prone to do - my friend used to do guard duty at Spandeau and at one time Rudolph Hess was 'shared' between the East and West. When us and the Yanks were there he had most things he wanted but when the Russians did there bit he was stripped of all privalages, such was their hatred of the Germans. Not surprising really when like you say they lost so many millions.

Unfortunately there are fascists in the new government and when the Russian embassy got trashed in Kiev , many swastika's were daubed on the walls . A couple of my friends in Ukraine who were pro-European have told me that because they have visited Russia to see families their e-mails have been hacked and are being watched closely and are very scared , Russian associated businesses have been closed down through stupid excuses like food poisoning etc , their words about their own government were 'Fascist *******s' , so not is all well . Just hope peace can come soon !

 

[Czechmate]

At least the coup on the whole was by the Ukrainians. The annex of Crimea was akin to Hitler's actions with the Sudatan Germans and once again the west did nothing.

As I have said, if people want to be under Russian control, they should head over the Russian border, not allow Russia to grab land.

What next? The Germans wanting Silesia back?

The Poles wanting Western Ukraine back?

I know this is unlikely as the Russians drove the ethnic Germans over the current German border in 1945 and the same with the Poles in western Ukraine.

Anyway did you get your double glazing sorted ?

 

[Uncle Buck]

Anyway did you get your double glazing sorted ?

I need planning permission, pesky conservation area.

 

[vegster]

Yep (Soviet Union) , lost 21-28 million soldiers during the second world war (many millions more than any other country) against the cream of the German army sometimes in freezing conditions , liberated Auschwitz and saved about 7,000 Jews (and Putin was not even invited to the anniversary ) , asked for help from the US and the UK in 1942 , but no help was given . They have always been an independent country and had to do things on their own , you can see in a way why they act like they do .

Then you have Stalin of course , so I see your different points !

Stalin also counted all those that died by his hand during many "purges" as war casualties and also those killed in punishment battalions who were often forced to march at gunpoint through minefields to clear them ahead of regular or NKVD troops. Throw in those that died because they were ill-equipped, unfed, or shot on the battlefield for alleged cowardice as an example and you can see why there were large casualties.

 

[TomandJerry]

Ukraine ceasefire in tatters as fighting escalates in east

Pro-Russia and government forces fight for control of Debaltseve, with Ukrainian military saying rebels have fired on its troops 112 times in last 24 hours.

Most of the fighting was concentrated around Debaltseve, where thousands of soldiers have been cut off from the main Ukrainian lines near Artemivsk by rebel artillery. Pro-Russia forces have been trying for weeks to take the town, which holds a rail junction connecting the main rebel centres of Donetsk and Luhansk.

“The number of attacks on Debaltseve has even increased in comparison to previous days and they are using all types of weapons,” another military spokesman, Anatoly Stelmakh, said on Monday. “The terrorists have been given the order to take Debaltseve at all cost.”

Shelling destroyed the police station in the town on Monday, the regional police chief, Vyacheslav Abroskin, wrote on his Facebook page. And Ukrainian troops there have fought off several assaults, according to Seleznyov.

The rebel leader, Alexander Zakharchenko, said this weekend his forces would observe the ceasefire everywhere except in Debaltseve. Kiev has repeatedly denied that Debaltseve is cut off, despite evidence to the contrary.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/16/ukraine-ceasefire-fighting-escalates-debaltseve

We have war!

 

[Danny-Boy]

Stalin also counted all those that died by his hand during many "purges" as war casualties and also those killed in punishment battalions who were often forced to march at gunpoint through minefields to clear them ahead of regular or NKVD troops. Throw in those that died because they were ill-equipped, unfed, or shot on the battlefield for alleged cowardice as an example and you can see why there were large casualties.

I wondered recently to a friend what problems they have on road or house construction in many areas fought over in WW2, must be like Liverpool Street station, only with added ordnance. A lot of German bombs never exploded because they were "sabbed" in the factories by impressed labour from France and other occupied countries.

The Prime Minister of Lithuania has flagged up tensions on his border now, that would be where there are still a lot of ethnic Russians inside the borders of what is a NATO power.

And there's still Kaliningrad...

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

IMHO Putin needs slapping down hard now before he starts in on the Baltic States with his expansionist bullshit. For example, broken down by ethnic group, Estonia consists of 70% Estonians, 25% Russians, 5% Other. Estonia is getting along just fine as it is. Wouldn't take much effort by Putin to spin up some flimsy crap about oppressed Russian minorities. Estonia is currently worried and has every right to be so.

Good to see UK Defence Secretary Michael Fallon going public with his fears for the Baltic States today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31528981

'There is a "real and present danger" of Russia trying to destabilise the Baltic states of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, the UK defence secretary says.
Michael Fallon said he was worried about "pressure" from Russian President Vladimir Putin on the ex-Soviet states, which are Nato members.
Russia might use tactics there similar to those it used in Ukraine, he said.'

Like I say, Putin needs slapping down hard NOW before he starts in on the Baltic States.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

If Putin launches his aggression at Mariupol, then the ceasefire is in tatters, and the call will be irresistible for the US to arm the Ukrainian government just like Putin is arming the rebels.


As diplomacy is failing with Putin making agreements and then ignoring them and carrying on regardless, it is increasingly likely that there is now only 2 ways for this to end.

1) The cost to Putin needs to ramped up every week with more punitive measures. We are a long way yet from Iran-style total sanctioning. At some point he may actually genuinely try for a lasting agreement.

or

2) The Russians themselves need to kick Putin out. This, sadly, will take time.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Well they did side with Germany in 1939.

We did offer aid help via Archangel, once we were on the same side. However we would not open up a second front until we were ready.

They went against agreements regarding Poland etc.

Katyn Forest is not one of their finest moments...

Etc etc etc.

The Russian convoys were our help, starting in August 1941.

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsRussianConvoys.htm