The Ukraine/Russia Situation

[Triggaaar]

Perhaps the Eastern Ukrainians and the people of Crimea don't want to be part of the original coup in Kiev ? They didn't have much say in the matter did they . Perhaps they asked for help from Moscow just like Kiev did with the EU and the US .

The land doesn't belong to Russia. The Russian descendants there came from Russia in the last couple of centuries, they can't now kick out what's left of the natives and claim the land as Russian.

One of the advantages we have of being an Island, is our historical borders do not change.

The Irish may not agree with you.

 

[Czechmate]

As I understand it, Eastern Ukraine isn't as much ethnically Russian as Russian-centric. There are loads of ethnic Russians there of course but most are not - they simply like being part of a Russian sphere of influence, whereas the rest of the Ukraine considers itself more central European, rather like the Polish. And this is the thing I think the US and EU are failing to grasp - the Russians and the East Ukrainians are not acting so much as blood thirsty tyrants as fiercely but illegally protecting what they have. Of course it doesn't justify the loss of life nor the Russians crossing the border with impunity, but I can well understand why it's happening. And we should consider the form the West has in starting illegal wars to protect it's own interests before indulging in the rank hypocrisy of criticising Putin for doing the same thing.

As a foot note, Russia wants to protect it's influence in Ukraine for the same reason as China hasn't crushed North Korea despite the utter madness of that state - it wants a buffer state between the heavily US-influenced South Korea. Same as Russia and the West.

Sensible post !

 

[Simster]

The Irish may not agree with you.

Why did you bother even quoting this? Was he expected to explain what he so obviously meant, which is that ebbing and flowing of borders of the British Isles inevitably halts at the Channel Tunnel. Sure, the Irish border has indeed been put in place once in 1000 years, but that hardly detracts from his point, which is that as a set of island nations, we are largely insulated from the problems caused by the ebb and flow of movement of people from any given ethnicity across a land mass.

 

[daveinprague]

If not for the channel, god only knows what language we would be speaking in the UK.

 

[vegster]

It was a fact that the Russian army were allowed up to 25,000 troops to be based in Crimea at any given time , it was a key strategic area for Russia , oil and so on or as the US would say ' Of National Security' . Could you imagine what would of happened if the Hawaiian's wanted the US out of Pearl harbour ?

The Hawaiians are part of the United States though.

 

[Czechmate]

The Hawaiians are part of the United States though.

Didn't want to be , when the US invaded they had no choice or no vote , it wasn't until US ex-pats were the majority that the ethnic Hawaiians were allowed to vote . The Crimean's voted recently by about 80% to be Russian . I know it's all wrong but what I try to get across is that the West is just as bad as Russia and because of propaganda you hardly ever see the Russian side . Yesterday was the first time I had seen on the news from Donetsk about Ukrainian people crying and asking why are the Kiev government bombing us ? It's been happening for about 6 months now and children killed in playgrounds etc by Ukrainian forces but no news .

 

[vegster]

Considering the majority of the population of Crimea is ethnic Russian, and considering the amount of military bases on the peninsular, it wouldjnt surprise me to see large numbers of ethnic Russians with miitary experience forming a militia overnight.

Mr Putin would never allow for a potential armed militia to be raised at short notice unless it was HIS militia. Do you really think you could just pop out to the shops to pick up all the state of the art weaponry, comms and uniforms needed at the local Tesco ? Or are there small arsenals all dotted about in case any small or large group with a grievance need some gear ? It would lovely to think that you could flash a pass on the gate and just pick up all the guns you want just like in The Matrix.

 

[daveinprague]

Mr Putin would never allow for a potential armed militia to be raised at short notice unless it was HIS militia. Do you really think you could just pop out to the shops to pick up all the state of the art weaponry, comms and uniforms needed at the local Tesco ? Or are there small arsenals all dotted about in case any small or large group with a grievance need some gear ? It would lovely to think that you could flash a pass on the gate and just pick up all the guns you want just like in The Matrix.

The 'rebels' took over all the military bases in the Crimea, and its a very large area, I would imagine they found all they needed. The Kiev govt was caught napping, and the Ukrainian Army soldiers, sailors, and airmen in the Crimea had no option but to lay down their arms, as we saw repeatedly on the news at the time.
Its weird for me, as I have friends from both sides.

 

[Uncle Buck]

Didn't want to be , when the US invaded they had no choice or no vote , it wasn't until US ex-pats were the majority that the ethnic Hawaiians were allowed to vote . The Crimean's voted recently by about 80% to be Russian . I know it's all wrong but what I try to get across is that the West is just as bad as Russia and because of propaganda you hardly ever see the Russian side . Yesterday was the first time I had seen on the news from Donetsk about Ukrainian people crying and asking why are the Kiev government bombing us ? It's been happening for about 6 months now and children killed in playgrounds etc by Ukrainian forces but no news .

That Crimea vote was not exactly fair or legitimate.

 

[Triggaaar]

Why did you bother even quoting this? Was he expected to explain what he so obviously meant, which is that ebbing and flowing of borders of the British Isles inevitably halts at the Channel Tunnel. Sure, the Irish border has indeed been put in place once in 1000 years, but that hardly detracts from his point, which is that as a set of island nations, we are largely insulated from the problems caused by the ebb and flow of movement of people from any given ethnicity across a land mass.

I didn't say his point was wrong, of course I agree that being an island means we have less issues than those on the mainland. I was simply saying that being an island (like Ireland) doesn't guarantee that your historical borders do not change. It was a lighthearted comment, that's all.

 

[sir albion]

Russia is on the Ukraine's doorstep. The USA is what 4000 miles away? Who is interfering?

Absolutely....You can see the yanks drumming up support against Russia as they know dam well the russian's are as big as it gets to being a threat to them.Im sure the yanky's would love all that oil and gas the Russians have.
The only way the Russians will be beaten is if all the countries clobber together as per usual as nobody on this planet would dare challenge the nuclear power house that is russia on its own and that includes the yanks.
Obama I noticed yesterday stating that the russian military is very powerful and that tit is thinking about arming the Ukrainians lol...would any european country dare arm Ukraine ?

Im getting pretty pissed off with the yanks poking their noses into everything and its always oil rich countries aswell

 

[Rugrat]

I'm getting pretty pissed off with the yanks poking their noses into everything and its always oil rich countries aswell

Not getting too involved in the debate but I agree with this.

I think Putin is a bit of a thug but largely on his own patch. Now the US are setting about recruiting former Soviet states into NATO and lobbing money at them, then I think Putin has a reasonable angst.

I very much doubt Merkel will get much success with Obama and our very own "leader" has been conspicuously quiet

Not sure it's about oil either, more to do with imposing an imagined superior philosophy

 

[vegster]

The 'rebels' took over all the military bases in the Crimea, and its a very large area, I would imagine they found all they needed. The Kiev govt was caught napping, and the Ukrainian Army soldiers, sailors, and airmen in the Crimea had no option but to lay down their arms, as we saw repeatedly on the news at the time.
Its weird for me, as I have friends from both sides.

So, a few boys got together in the pub one night and during the course of the evening they suddenly felt they needed to be closer to Mother Russia. So how would they go about this ? I know, "we will all go off and buy military uniforms, and boots and in the morning we will walk in to the Ukrainian bases and steal their guns than we will tell them to lay down their guns" Simples. Or did they phone a few friends up to help get it started ? " My mates sister's boyfreind has a APC in pretty good nick and his mate has got two old army trucks and some mates who are up for a ruck " " I've got a heavy MG and 400 rounds under my bed if it helps ? " " One thing, how do we all know what we are doing as we are only on first name terms and we have to organise an entire command structure tonight so we all know what we are doing ? "

Forget Western propaganda, these were highly trained well armed men who were already armed to the teeth and bussed in from Mother Russia or had been secreted in Russian bases waiting for the signal. Then to add a veneer of respectability, the fastest and best ever turnout vote for independence was held. If you can't see that this was Putin at work then you are mad.

 

[daveinprague]

Ok, calm down. Ill agree with you, it is all about Russia, sorry, I mean the evil Putin, being sneeky....

 

[Triggaaar]

Ok, calm down. Ill agree with you, it is all about Russia, sorry, I mean the evil Putin, being sneeky....

So you do agree, or you're being sarcastic and you think it was done without Russia / Putin's help?

 

[wellquickwoody]

Absolutely....You can see the yanks drumming up support against Russia as they know dam well the russian's are as big as it gets to being a threat to them.Im sure the yanky's would love all that oil and gas the Russians have.
The only way the Russians will be beaten is if all the countries clobber together as per usual as nobody on this planet would dare challenge the nuclear power house that is russia on its own and that includes the yanks.
Obama I noticed yesterday stating that the russian military is very powerful and that tit is thinking about arming the Ukrainians lol...would any european country dare arm Ukraine ?

Im getting pretty pissed off with the yanks poking their noses into everything and its always oil rich countries aswell

And the U.S. is not oil rich?

 

[jakarta]

The USA is by far the worlds largest importer of oil, importing almost double the amount of 2nd place China.

It almost certainly is a major factor in their warped foreign policies.

My understanding was that with Fracking the US dependence on foreign oil had reduced to such an extent that they had repealed 1970's legislation forbidding export of home produced Hydrocarbons and were actually exporting again?

There is a country, of course, that is suffering badly from the plummeting oil price.

It may well indulge in a foreign policy adventure to distract from domestic problems in regards to recession, inflation and unemployment.

I wonder who that could be?

 

[Czechmate]

Absolutely....You can see the yanks drumming up support against Russia as they know dam well the russian's are as big as it gets to being a threat to them.Im sure the yanky's would love all that oil and gas the Russians have.
The only way the Russians will be beaten is if all the countries clobber together as per usual as nobody on this planet would dare challenge the nuclear power house that is russia on its own and that includes the yanks.
Obama I noticed yesterday stating that the russian military is very powerful and that tit is thinking about arming the Ukrainians lol...would any european country dare arm Ukraine ?

Im getting pretty pissed off with the yanks poking their noses into everything and its always oil rich countries aswell

Agree with it all , especially the last sentence . Where were they when Maggie asked for their help in the Falklands In a small way a similar situation to Ukraine , but the Yanks didn't want to get involved as it was not in their own interests . They use the UK when it suits them , when will we get someone in power that will actually say no to them .

 

[The Spanish]

They use the UK when it suits them , when will we get someone in power that will actually say no to them .

Harold Wilson ?

 

[Czechmate]

So, a few boys got together in the pub one night and during the course of the evening they suddenly felt they needed to be closer to Mother Russia. So how would they go about this ? I know, "we will all go off and buy military uniforms, and boots and in the morning we will walk in to the Ukrainian bases and steal their guns than we will tell them to lay down their guns" Simples. Or did they phone a few friends up to help get it started ? " My mates sister's boyfreind has a APC in pretty good nick and his mate has got two old army trucks and some mates who are up for a ruck " " I've got a heavy MG and 400 rounds under my bed if it helps ? " " One thing, how do we all know what we are doing as we are only on first name terms and we have to organise an entire command structure tonight so we all know what we are doing ? "

Forget Western propaganda, these were highly trained well armed men who were already armed to the teeth and bussed in from Mother Russia or had been secreted in Russian bases waiting for the signal. Then to add a veneer of respectability, the fastest and best ever turnout vote for independence was held. If you can't see that this was Putin at work then you are mad.

I agree to a certain extent , and I can't explain about the heavy weapons as I have no facts but I would of thought most of the older Ukrainians/Russians were at one time involved in the army and also the pride and joy for a male is to have photo's taken with a pistol or rifle , just look at VK (the Russian version of facebook) and so many men are in uniform with automatic rifles and pistols and that was before the events in Ukraine .