The Rise of the Old Germany?

[Milton Keynes Seagull]

Or am I just showing how old I am... still living with the spectre of Nazism?

Most East Germans are more concerned about living with the spectre of Communism, and those nice people the Stasi paying them a visit.

 

[Brovion]

I don't think this is anything to do with Nazism. It's not really anything to do with immigration - it's only discussing multi-culturalism. We've obviously had the same thing in Britain where during the Seventies and Eighties we tried a multi-cultural approach encouraging immigrants not to 'assimilate' but to keep in their own groups and to maintain their own cultural traditions (which were seen as being just as 'valid' as Western liberal ones). Sadly as we now know that policy was a total 100% unmitigated catastrophic failure and has lead to the current situation where entrenched communities stare uncomprehendingly and fearfully at each other.

In other words Merkel is only saying what most people, barring the terminally stupid, have known for at least the last ten years. She may as well have said "When it rains the pavements get wet."

 

[Milton Keynes Seagull]

I don't think this is anything to do with Nazism. It's not really anything to do with immigration - it's only discussing multi-culturalism. We've obviously had the same thing in Britain where during the Seventies and Eighties we tried a multi-cultural approach encouraging immigrants not to 'assimilate' but to keep in their own groups and to maintain their own cultural traditions (which were seen as being just as 'valid' as Western liberal ones). Sadly as we now know that policy was a total 100% unmitigated catastrophic failure and has lead to the current situation where entrenched communities stare uncomprehendingly and fearfully at each other.

In other words Merkel is only saying what most people, barring the terminally stupid, have known for at least the last ten years. She may as well have said "When it rains the pavements get wet."

Much truth in this post. The trouble with some others is that they put multi-culturalism in the same bracket as multi-racialism. You can oppose the former and be comfortable with the latter.

 

[Brovion]

Much truth in this post. The trouble with some others is that they put multi-culturalism in the same bracket as multi-racialism. You can oppose the former and be comfortable with the latter.

Blimey I agree with you for once! That can't be good! But yes, there's a classic example on NSC at the moment, The Cardinal's 'a question for all you immigration ranters' thread. No one's suggesting for one moment that Gus Poyet and all the other foreigners on the Albion's books should become 'English' (although Poyet's son might!), on the other hand they've 'integrated' into our society as opposed to just staying in little ghettos somewhere. And we've benefitted from their arrival and the fresh blood and fresh ideas they've brought. Think how shit we were before with an English manager and English coaches!

If only the whole country could be like the Albion eh?

 

[Biscuit]

Multiculturalism is very, very difficult to get right and people generally stick to their 'own'. I'm sure Germany are doing as much as another other EU member state.

 

[Danny-Boy]

I agree with this. I go to Germany quite regularly and take a close interest in goings-on there and the extreme right wing is very small. There are some rather nasty skinhead gangs around - and I certainly wouldn't like to walk around of the more deprived areas of East Germany at night - but the chance of any significant nationalist movement is zero.

Totally agree about Austria though - I really wouldn't be so complacent about that country.

I used to visit and work in West Germany extensively from the 1970's through to 1986.

At that time the "Gastarbeiter" of whom I was one for a while , were a real social mproblem, particularly the Turks, who at one job I worked alongside.

They were mainly first generation German Turks, but were far from integrated. They were supposed to marry "clean" Turkish girls from back home who hadn't been programmed by western notions of equal rights for women. Some of them had wives and families in turkey. That didn't stop them - and me,come to that - going after the local skirt. Plenty of that around Heidelberg.

Result: clashes with the local lads who resented that, and also with their own families. Now roll on 25 years, there will be a new generation whose parents were born in Germany (e.g. I think Mehmet Oezil) but who are still ethnically Turkish. And then plenty of mixed-race kids, most with Turkish fathers.

Also there were Italians, Yugoslavs, Greeks and Portuguese. Now 20% of the German population is allegedly from stock brought in since 1945. That's quite a problem to deal with.

 

[Danny-Boy]

I don't think this is anything to do with Nazism. It's not really anything to do with immigration - it's only discussing multi-culturalism. We've obviously had the same thing in Britain where during the Seventies and Eighties we tried a multi-cultural approach encouraging immigrants not to 'assimilate' but to keep in their own groups and to maintain their own cultural traditions (which were seen as being just as 'valid' as Western liberal ones). Sadly as we now know that policy was a total 100% unmitigated catastrophic failure and has lead to the current situation where entrenched communities stare uncomprehendingly and fearfully at each other.

In other words Merkel is only saying what most people, barring the terminally stupid, have known for at least the last ten years. She may as well have said "When it rains the pavements get wet."

Yes, and remember the story of the King's new clothes....

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Comments have been made by Merkel and other leaders from the CDU/CSU in the last few weeks about immigrants needing to do more to integrate e.g. learn the language.

IMO, not unreasonable.

Are you fluent in German, AG? Genuine question!

 

[Austrian Gull]

Are you fluent in German, AG? Genuine question!

Totally fluent would be pushing it but I cope pretty comfortably.

 

[Austrian Gull]

I don't think Sully has much to worry about with regards a possible rise of the far-right in Germany because the NPD is seen as a marginal party who are not accepted as part of the mainstream. Similar to the BNP I guess.

The situation in Austria is markedly different because the FPÖ (far-right Freedom party) get just as much time in the media and are seen as part of the political landscape. They're basically a single policy party (whatever the problem is, blame the foreigners) but still got 26% in this month's Vienna city election. Same is true in France.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Totally fluent would be pushing it but I cope pretty comfortably.

I assumed you probably did! Us Brits do have a pretty crap reputation when it comes to speaking other languages however, it must be said.

I wonder how many of the thousands of ageing ex-pat Brits living on the Costa del Sol make any effort at all to integrate into Spanish society, or bother to learn much more than "hola" and "dos cervezas señor, gracias". Out of curiosity, do the Spanish bang on about all the immigrants burdening their health system, shopping at British shops and living in little English enclaves for 365 days a year? And what's the difference between that and the Turkish in Germany (or for arguments sake, the Poles at home?).

 

[Gwylan]

I assumed you probably did! Us Brits do have a pretty crap reputation when it comes to speaking other languages however, it must be said.

When I was in Berlin a couple of weeks ago, I was chatting to the owner of the restaurant where I was eating and he couldn't believe that I was English because "the English don't speak German". It's a rather sad reputation to have.

Re the Brits on the Spanish coast. It's always amusing that many of the most virulent anti-immigrant remarks seem to stem from Brits living in Spain or Cyprus.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

I assumed you probably did! Us Brits do have a pretty crap reputation when it comes to speaking other languages however, it must be said.

I wonder how many of the thousands of ageing ex-pat Brits living on the Costa del Sol make any effort at all to integrate into Spanish society, or bother to learn much more than "hola" and "dos cervezas señor, gracias". Out of curiosity, do the Spanish bang on about all the immigrants burdening their health system, shopping at British shops and living in little English enclaves for 365 days a year? And what's the difference between that and the Turkish in Germany (or for arguments sake, the Poles at home?).

There is a difference of course Edna. The guest workers, whether Turk or Polish, were invited in by the host governement becasue their own people didn't want to get paid rubbish salaries or do menial jobs. This of cousre was when the econmony was doing grand and no one had ever had it so good. At that time, no one even spoke of multiculturalism... if you have a chance try and see Ganz Unten by Gunter Wallraff. Was shown on British TV a few years ago.

Now of course, with the economy in decline, they are not wanted. It is this that makes the concrete link between multiculturalism and multiracialism. Merkel is saying it now because she knows there are votes in suggesting that jobs will no longer be taken area from True Germans.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

I don't think Sully has much to worry about with regards a possible rise of the far-right in Germany because the NPD is seen as a marginal party who are not accepted as part of the mainstream. Similar to the BNP I guess.

The situation in Austria is markedly different because the FPÖ (far-right Freedom party) get just as much time in the media and are seen as part of the political landscape. They're basically a single policy party (whatever the problem is, blame the foreigners) but still got 26% in this month's Vienna city election. Same is true in France.

AG, my worry is not NPD getting votes..... it is that the mainstream parties are beginning to sound like the NPD.

 

[ILIKECANDLES]

I often find myself in Germany and am always surprised how much I like the place. It could do with a few more beaches (the norths a bit cold) but its warm in Munich right now.

It has order, mountains, good beer, blondes, PR (or a form of), pensioners are well respected still, industry and no limit on most autobahns!

 

[shaun_rc]

When I was in Berlin a couple of weeks ago, I was chatting to the owner of the restaurant where I was eating and he couldn't believe that I was English because "the English don't speak German". It's a rather sad reputation to have.

My German's not brilliant - it's OK - but I once had someone say that they had never heard an English person speaking German before. They said they now knew what an English accent in German sounded like! I find it difficult to believe, but sad if true...

 

[Gwylan]

My German's not brilliant - it's OK - but I once had someone say that they had never heard an English person speaking German before. They said they now knew what an English accent in German sounded like! I find it difficult to believe, but sad if true...

I'm normally accused of being Turkish, so I guess an English accent in German sounds like that