Sweden’s Coronovirus strategy will soon be the worlds

[Albion Dan]

When have I ever espoused views on lockdowns, that's you jumping to conclusions my friend, just because I don't agree with your herd mentality view...

So you don’t advocate lock downs then? Apologies. Seems like we both agree more lock downs are a disaster. Good to know we have common ground.

 

[Albion Dan]

The problem is you post the same bias confirmation shit every single day, with no balance...

[emoji23] because from everything I’ve read and researched I believe we are on the precipice of a total disaster and I want my kids and their kids to have a chance at living something resembling a decent life and not some dystopian future.

 

[Weststander]

A question for NSC’s obsessives about the CV19 paradise of Sweden. Why in the hell would you champion a country where like Belgium, Netherlands, UK, Spain, France and Italy, a whole load of people have died from covid? Yes, old people in care homes have rights too.

Why not champion Denmark where people in essence lived and the economy fared no worse than Sweden’s, shirley having one’s cake and eat it?

I admire the other Nordic nations and Germany. Sweden is only the poster boy if you callously from the UK think it’s fine that old people died due to CV19.

 

[clapham_gull]

Oh the irony is all in your post Im afraid my friend.

I've explored an unbelievable amount of information on all angles of covid to come up with my non mainstream Piers Morgan fear fuelled view of where we are.

Here we have two of the main NSC pro lockdown protagonists actually admitting they are commenting on content they've not even watched.

A few things.

1) Research is not watching youtube..
2) You will always find a video or website that agrees with your view. It's called confurmation bias.
3) You will always a find a Doctor or Scientist that agrees with you. Even if they have been struck off by their respective profession or haven't studied infectious diseases.

 

[clapham_gull]

Oh the irony is all in your post Im afraid my friend.

I've explored an unbelievable amount of information on all angles of covid to come up with my non mainstream Piers Morgan fear fuelled view of where we are.

Here we have two of the main NSC pro lockdown protagonists actually admitting they are commenting on content they've not even watched.

You ruined it with the word "mainstream"...

.. again.

Can I also ask another serious question. Did you lurch to the right poltically because of Covid or were you there before ?

 

[Albion Dan]

A question for NSC’s obsessives about the CV19 paradise of Sweden. Why in the hell would you champion a country where like Belgium, Netherlands, UK, Spain, France and Italy, a whole load of people have died from covid? Yes, old people in care homes have rights too.

Why not champion Denmark where people in essence lived and the economy fared no worse than Sweden’s, shirley having one’s cake and eat it?

I admire the other Nordic nations and Germany. Sweden is only the poster boy if you callously from the UK think it’s fine that old people died due to CV19.

From what I gather from the research I’ve seen is that Sweden are back to more normality than Denmark etc. I also believe the latest GDP figures are showing Sweden’s bouncing back faster than originally expected. https://www.thelocal.se/20200930/whats-in-store-for-the-swedish-economy-in-the-final-months-of-2020

Sweden definitely got it wrong by not protecting their vulnerable properly at the outset which they openly admit. There are definitely lessons to be learnt and maybe their direct neighbours did something right at the outset but it seem that Sweden are far better geared up for additional waves and have certainly done insanely better than most of western Europe looking at current stats. Absolutely no one could argue they are not eons ahead of England’s utter sh*t show.

 

[darkwolf666]

So you don’t advocate lock downs then? Apologies. Seems like we both agree more lock downs are a disaster. Good to know we have common ground.

You don't know what common ground we have because you don't bother to listen to what other people say, or give them a chance to express an opinion, unless it coincides with yours. Your little cliche jump on anyone who expresses anything other than your view, normally with you looking down your nose at then, telling them how stupid they are.

I believe that economically a full lockdown would be disastrous, at this time. However if the need arise to go the Full Monty again, to save lives, then so be it...

I believe the majority should be able to go about their business as "normal", while those deemed vulnerable should be given proper support, for them and their direct household. This support should be financial, emotional, mental and health, rather than the previous shielding, which was basically just locking people up!

Unfortunately this probably won't happen, because people will think it unfair that some are treated differently, "why can they stay at home, when I can't" - ultimately that is half the problem as to why we are where we are, selfish people who don't want to be told what to do and then moan about what others have!

 

[Weststander]

From what I gather from the research I’ve seen is that Sweden are back to more normality that Denmark etc. I also believe the latest GDP figures are showing Sweden’s bouncing back faster than originally expected. https://www.thelocal.se/20200930/whats-in-store-for-the-swedish-economy-in-the-final-months-of-2020

Sweden definitely got it wrong by not protecting their vulnerable properly at the outset which they openly admit. There are definitely lessons to be learnt and maybe their direct neighbours did something right at the outset but it seem that Sweden are far better geared up for additional waves and have certainly done insanely better than most of western Europe looking at current stats. Absolutely no one could argue they are not eons ahead of England’s utter sh*t show.

Here’s some stats even you can’t disagree with:

Uk deaths per million 633
Sweden 583

Denmark 116
Germany 116

Now you know the truth, why could you possibly be attracted to another high death toll nation? What is it exactly that you find attractive about?

Why don’t you promote Denmark or Germany as the models to follow?

What is your angle?

 

[Albion Dan]

You ruined it with the word "mainstream"...

.. again.

Can I also ask another serious question. Did you lurch to the right poltically because of Covid or where you there before ?

Such a weak cliche to attack that word to try and discredit. I’m not right politically at all I’ve voted Labour all my life. Why does scepticism in getting all my information and programmed views from the fear porn ridden BBC, Piers Morgan, Dr Hillary and all the billionaire owned tabloids mean I’d be right wing? Incidentally it was all those media outlets that that drove an agenda to get a majority of people to vote Tory and Boris in yet I’m right wing for now not believing what they say? [emoji23]Laughable. And what are those outlets if they aren’t mainstream? What do you call them?

 

[Albion Dan]

Here’s some stats even you can’t disagree with:

Uk deaths per million 633
Sweden 583

Denmark 116
Germany 116

Now you know the truth, why could you possibly be attracted to another high death toll nation? What is it exactly that you find attractive about?

Why don’t you promote Denmark or Germany as the models to follow?

What is your angle?

Like I said Sweden made mistakes at the start. Germany are still dancing around lockdowns and are pretty much in the same boat of no near normality until a vaccine. Irreparable long term damage. I see Berlin going into curfew recently. No end in sight for them with their approach.

 

[Albion Dan]

You don't know what common ground we have because you don't bother to listen to what other people say, or give them a chance to express an opinion, unless it coincides with yours. Your little cliche jump on anyone who expresses anything other than your view, normally with you looking down your nose at then, telling them how stupid they are.

I believe that economically a full lockdown would be disastrous, at this time. However if the need arise to go the Full Monty again, to save lives, then so be it...

I believe the majority should be able to go about their business as "normal", while those deemed vulnerable should be given proper support, for them and their direct household. This support should be financial, emotional, mental and health, rather than the previous shielding, which was basically just locking people up!

Unfortunately this probably won't happen, because people will think it unfair that some are treated differently, "why can they stay at home, when I can't" - ultimately that is half the problem as to why we are where we are, selfish people who don't want to be told what to do and then moan about what others have!

Well pretty much everything I post is aligned to your view except another lock down as I believe will cost more lives than it saves so I’m confused why you challenge every post of mine. Anyway great we’ve actually established we mostly agree on the best way forward after all this time so that’s one less person to try and convince that the current strategy is suicidal insanity [emoji23]

 

[Weststander]

Like I said Sweden made mistakes at the start. Germany are still dancing around lockdowns and are pretty much in the same boat of no near normality until a vaccine. Irreparable long term damage. I see Berlin going into curfew recently. No end in sight for them with their approach.

The German and Danish models led to low deaths, and similar economic decline to Sweden.

Shirley we should look to them for inspiration, it worked.

Whereas Sweden left 5,900 families unnecessarily bereaved, real people who deserved to live. The pro rata equivalent of 39,000 in the UK.

 

[e77]

When have I ever said that people should be locked up so I don’t have to wear a mask? Now you’re just fabricating nonsense just because I highlighted that simple maths debunked your argument.

I want to protect the vulnerable so our society isn’t incinerated for decades. Why don’t you care about the future of the generations that will have to deal with the misery and consequential death of our covid strategy? Why don’t you care that millions are going to be unemployed and in abject poverty? Business bankrupt in the tens of thousands. You don’t seem to have any empathy for anything beyond a selfish desire to avoid pain today and screw the long term. Isn’t that the true sign of a narcissist?

Look, I have been involved with the Labour Party for a few years and had first hand dealings with a lot of the more out there element Corbyn (Jeremy this time) encouraged to join (which is not to say a lot of very fine well intended people didn't join as well). They develop a world view that becomes more important to them then anything and they can't understand why anyone else doesn't see it. Problem is most of the time it wasn't properly thought through or intellectually robust. In the age of the internet it has become easy to find people who agree with any world view so it gets reinforced in their head and they assume the majority of people who disagree are either brainwashed or will come round to your view if you keep on trying to explain it to them in more and more robust terms.

When this fails they trying and neutralise you by playing the man and not the ball, usually by trying to knock your confidence by questioning your character or intelligence, more often that not ending in out and out gaslighting.

I only mention about because that was my experience. I suspect the same could be said about some arch-Brexiteers or Cybernats (note I said some, I concede there are logical arguments on both of those debates).

Now usually with such people I am happy to leave them alone discussing the Royal Family being lizards or denying the Moon landings. We all had a laugh during Icke's shell suit period, didn't we?

Problem is sometimes these things burst out of their bubble and begin to permeate the mainstream. Icke suddenly starts spreading anti-semitic memes and it doesn't seem funny anymore when people who laughed along previously don't dismiss them out of hand. 10,000 people turn up at Trafalgar Square to protest against lockdown - again I think there is a genuine debate to be had there - but then you have speakers saying the whole thing is a hoax and a vaccine is danger. Before you know it you see polls saying half the country won't take a vaccine. In the ultimate example Trump ended up with a nuclear arsenal at his disposal.

I see what you write and I think about what I have dealt with in the last few years and it reminds me of it. Nothing would give me pleasure to leave you to it but I think the world is a crises and good people, of which I think I am one, can't just stand aside and let people who cherry pick evidence or content with no attempt at context run wild because, like the virus, it can't be allowed to spread unchecked.

 

[Albion Dan]

The German and Danish models led to low deaths, and similar economic decline to Sweden.

Shirley we should look to them for inspiration, it worked.

Whereas Sweden left 5,900 families unnecessarily bereaved, real people who deserved to live. The pro rata equivalent of 39,000 in the UK.

But Germany have just had to impose a curfew on their capital city?

 

[Swansman]

Look, I have been involved with the Labour Party for a few years and had first hand dealings with a lot of the more out there element Corbyn (Jeremy this time) encouraged to join (which is not to say a lot of very fine well intended people didn't join as well). They develop a world view that becomes more important to them then anything and they can't understand why anyone else doesn't see it. Problem is most of the time it wasn't properly thought through or intellectually robust. In the age of the internet it has become easy to find people who agree with any world view so it gets reinforced in their head and they assume the majority of people who disagree are either brainwashed or will come round to your view if you keep on trying to explain it to them in more and more robust terms.

When this fails they trying and neutralise you by playing the man and not the ball, usually by trying to knock your confidence by questioning your character or intelligence, more often that not ending in out and out gaslighting.

I only mention about because that was my experience. I suspect the same could be said about some arch-Brexiteers or Cybernats (note I said some, I concede there are logical arguments on both of those debates).

Now usually with such people I am happy to leave them alone discussing the Royal Family being lizards or denying the Moon landings. We all had a laugh during Icke's shell suit period, didn't we?

Problem is sometimes these things burst out of their bubble and begin to permeate the mainstream. Icke suddenly starts spreading anti-semitic memes and it doesn't seem funny anymore when people who laughed along previously don't dismiss them out of hand. 10,000 people turn up at Trafalgar Square to protest against lockdown - again I think there is a genuine debate to be had there - but then you have speakers saying the whole thing is a hoax and a vaccine is danger. Before you know it you see polls saying half the country won't take a vaccine. In the ultimate example Trump ended up with a nuclear arsenal at his disposal.

I see what you write and I think about what I have dealt with in the last few years and it reminds me of it. Nothing would give me pleasure to leave you to it but I think the world is a crises and good people, of which I think I am one, can't just stand aside and let people who cherry pick evidence or content with no attempt at context run wild because, like the virus, it can't be allowed to spread unchecked.

So... The TLDR of what you are saying is:

"There are some people - like you - who are in love with their own perspectives and think that a lot of other people are brainwashed. However, I love my perspectives and think that these other people - like you - are brainwashed".

Now back to Albion Dan to say the same thing. And then back to e77.

"I am right and you are wrong", a game older than chess and with more stalemates and no Capablanca to find solutions to it.

 

[e77]

So... The TLDR of what you are saying is:

"There are some people - like you - who are in love with their own perspectives and think that a lot of other people are brainwashed. However, I love my perspectives and think that these other people - like you - are brainwashed".

Now back to Albion Dan to say the same thing. And then back to e77.

"I am right and you are wrong", a game older than chess and with more stalemates and no Capablanca to find solutions to it.

I can't really speak about Sweden or the Swedish approach but if the Swedish people are happy then good luck to you.

I am not an expert on Covid-19 but I listen to experts. By that I mean eminently qualified Doctors and Scientists who are so well regarded they get to stand next to Presidents and Prime Ministers when making announcements. People who have access to the data that allows them to assess the bigger picture and the mindset to change their opinion as their understanding changes. I don't base my worldview on a video by a Junior Doctor or a Newspaper Headline that doesn't represent what the interviewee actually said.

If you or anyone thinks you know better than them then the onus is on you to prove it through hard scientific fact, not through anecdote or headline.

 

[Bozza]

So... The TLDR of what you are saying is:

"There are some people - like you - who are in love with their own perspectives and think that a lot of other people are brainwashed. However, I love my perspectives and think that these other people - like you - are brainwashed".

Now back to Albion Dan to say the same thing. And then back to e77.

"I am right and you are wrong", a game older than chess and with more stalemates and no Capablanca to find solutions to it.

One of these gentlemen would prove to be a fine drinking partner in any pub of your choice.

The other is a ****ing nutter.

Take your pick.

 

[Swansman]

I can't really speak about Sweden or the Swedish approach but if the Swedish people are happy then good luck to you.

I am not an expert on Covid-19 but I listen to experts. By that I mean eminently qualified Doctors and Scientists who are so well regarded they get to stand next to Presidents and Prime Ministers when making announcements. People who have access to the data that allows them to assess the bigger picture and the mindset to change their opinion as their understanding changes. I don't base my worldview on a video by a Junior Doctor or a Newspaper Headline that doesn't represent what the interviewee actually said.

If you or anyone thinks you know better than them then the onus is on you to prove it through hard scientific fact, not through anecdote or headline.

Yes yes, I get it, you trust one bunch of guys and Albion Dan trust another bunch of guys. You trust yours since they "get to stand next to Presidents and Prime Ministers", and he probably trust his because they dont get to stand next to Presidents and Prime Ministers.

I'm sure this and a lot of other questions are looking very "black or white" to you guys, but from opposite sides, because you are obviously different people with different mindsets and attitudes. Its not going to change. You wont turn into the fringe guy and Dan wont turn into the establishment guy.

 

[Swansman]

One of these gentlemen would prove to be a fine drinking partner in any pub of your choice.

The other is a ****ing nutter.

Take your pick.

I enjoy drinking beer with both gentlemen and nutters, no need to pick.

 

[darkwolf666]

Well pretty much everything I post is aligned to your view except another lock down as I believe will cost more lives than it saves so I’m confused why you challenge every post of mine. Anyway great we’ve actually established we mostly agree on the best way forward after all this time so that’s one less person to try and convince that the current strategy is suicidal insanity [emoji23]

It's a real shame you don't actually read what people say. All you want to do is crow and say "look, another convert to the church of [MENTION=316]Albion Dan[/MENTION]...

Nevermind!