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[News] Sturgeon et al lose indyref2 court case



Jeremiah

God is great
Mar 15, 2020
2,284
Hove
Their right to have another vote on independence should be allowed when their football team win the Euro's or World Cup.
 




Tony Towner's Fridge

Well-known member
Aug 22, 2003
5,412
GLASGOW,SCOTLAND,UK
I'm going to be the dissenting voice here. If the Scots want a referendum then let them. If it's such a problem to those that oppose another referendum then write into the legislation for the new referendum that another can't be held for x amount of time. I really don't understand why people are so opposed to the electorate having their say.
We had a vote in 2014 and the majority wanted to stay. She continually adopts a non-democratic stance in defence of her view of democracy. She is now nicknamed Benito for good reasons. A terrible sociopath who has run this country down over 15 years of SNP and 8 years of her tenure. Time to kick them out and elect a government who cares on investment, services and growth.

Sadly her jackboot stormtroopers will now start to resort to violence and she, in time honoured fashion, will turn the blind eye.

Nasty piece of work, needs dealt with.


TNBA

TTF
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,418
Goldstone
Sturgeon knew she would lose the case and is playing games to try to increase a sense of grievance.
This. Different parts of any country don't automatically have the right to declare independence. The poisoned rat simply used it to cry that democracy is being prevented, which it isn't.
As for SNP I know they hate Brexit, but they should also look at its failure. The smaller party that chooses to break away will always come off worse, a break with the UK would be no different.
Has independence been bad for Ireland?
 


mikeyjh

Well-known member
Dec 17, 2008
4,537
Llanymawddwy
We had a vote in 2014 and the majority wanted to stay. She continually adopts a non-democratic stance in defence of her view of democracy. She is now nicknamed Benito for good reasons. A terrible sociopath who has run this country down over 15 years of SNP and 8 years of her tenure. Time to kick them out and elect a government who cares on investment, services and growth.

Sadly her jackboot stormtroopers will now start to resort to violence and she, in time honoured fashion, will turn the blind eye.

Nasty piece of work, needs dealt with.


TNBA

TTF
Nationalism always produces these types - Here in Wales, they are nasty, horrible - They paint themselves as being welcoming and inclusive, the reality is very very different. Their cause takes precedence over everything, look at the minutes from any particular Gwynedd Council meeting, you will see far more references to the Welsh language than other less important, piffling matters such as Policing and Social Care....
 






Jeremiah

God is great
Mar 15, 2020
2,284
Hove
This. Different parts of any country don't automatically have the right to declare independence. The poisoned rat simply used it to cry that democracy is being prevented, which it isn't.

Has independence been bad for Ireland?
We had to bail Ireland out with £Billions not that long ago.
 


Pavilionaire

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
30,837
Given today's decision the ONLY way Scotland can hope to get Westminster to agree to IndyRef2 is if after a General Election they hold the balance of power and the largest party agree to give them their referendum in return for their support over the forthcoming parliament.

But the Conservative (and Unionist) Party would never agree to this by dint of their own constitution, while Labour would be potentially agreeing to a redrawn electorate without Scotland which - historically, until recently, has been a happy hunting ground for them re Westminster seats.

And if it were a Labour coalition agreeing to this concession it would be a Labour Party without a majority.

I suppose if it were down to Holyrood to decide then they could call for an IndyRef2 periodically until they eventually got the result they required, and this would undermine confidence permanently in the UK as an entity.

The bottom line is the Scots as a race are more left-wing and pro-Europe than their English counterparts.

Personally, I find it sad that England and Scotland have this permanently disfunctional relationship and yet - just a few hundred miles away - the 6 million population of Denmark sit atop the much larger population of Germany with a very respectful and healthy relationship, both under the aegis of the EU.
 


Tom Hark Preston Park

Will Post For Cash
Jul 6, 2003
70,880
Given today's decision the ONLY way Scotland can hope to get Westminster to agree to IndyRef2 is if after a General Election they hold the balance of power and the largest party agree to give them their referendum in return for their support over the forthcoming parliament.

But the Conservative (and Unionist) Party would never agree to this by dint of their own constitution, while Labour would be potentially agreeing to a redrawn electorate without Scotland which - historically, until recently, has been a happy hunting ground for them re Westminster seats.

And if it were a Labour coalition agreeing to this concession it would be a Labour Party without a majority.

I suppose if it were down to Holyrood to decide then they could call for an IndyRef2 periodically until they eventually got the result they required, and this would undermine confidence permanently in the UK as an entity.

The bottom line is the Scots as a race are more left-wing and pro-Europe than their English counterparts.

Personally, I find it sad that England and Scotland have this permanently disfunctional relationship and yet - just a few hundred miles away - the 6 million population of Denmark sit atop the much larger population of Germany with a very respectful and healthy relationship, both under the aegis of the EU.
History will judge. Map of the world will look as wildly different 100 years from now as it looked 100 years ago or even as it looks now. There will be an independent Scotland, united Ireland, Spanish Gibraltar, Argentinian Falklands etc etc
 




nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
17,792
Gods country fortnightly
I am genuinely sad as should Scotland have won the right to another referendum and decided to then leave the UK with re entry into the EU, it would be the catalyst for me to move to Scotland
Whilst I can't stand Sturgeon I can understand the distain with Westminster from the Scots, in Sept 2014 Cameron told them to vote to stay in the UK in stay in the EU.

Less than 7 months later the Tories went to the country on an EU referendum ticket to address their own internal squabbles, they've been in meltdown ever since...
 


Curious Orange

Punxsatawney Phil
Jul 5, 2003
10,011
On NSC for over two decades...
I'd agree with you normally but remember the status quo has somewhat changed for every UK nation since we voted to leave the EU. If the people of Scotland think leaving the UK and joining the EU is best for them then let them.
If the SNP had done a better job of convincing their own population to a) vote, and b) vote remain then the whole joining the EU point for them would have been moot.

67% turnout in Scotland and about a million voted leave (1.6 million remain) against a 72% national average turnout.

There was about a million votes between leave and remain in total.

In any case, how is joining the EU being independent?
 


Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
16,918
Fiveways
I'm going to be the dissenting voice here. If the Scots want a referendum then let them. If it's such a problem to those that oppose another referendum then write into the legislation for the new referendum that another can't be held for x amount of time. I really don't understand why people are so opposed to the electorate having their say.
You and I have found something to agree on politically :thumbsup:
I wonder how many times the SNP will have to be returned as the leading party (note also the Scottish Greens are pro-indy) in order for most on this thread to concede that they should be offered a further referendum, because the SNP have run on that ticket and won for a fair few elections since 2014.
There is also the issue that, in not granting a referendum, you actually increase the likelihood of losing it when it is held.
 




GT49er

Well-known member
Feb 1, 2009
47,254
Gloucester
I'd agree with you normally but remember the status quo has somewhat changed for every UK nation since we voted to leave the EU. If the people of Scotland think leaving the UK and joining the EU is best for them then let them.
You are of course assuming something you don't know - whether the EU would admit them. Apart from their dodgy economy if not joined to England, the EU might not be too keen on a land border with England.
 


Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
16,918
Fiveways
This. Different parts of any country don't automatically have the right to declare independence. The poisoned rat simply used it to cry that democracy is being prevented, which it isn't.

Has independence been bad for Ireland?
And there I was thinking that the majority government in Scotland (SNP-Scottish Greens) were calling for a referendum on independence, but now I've discovered that what they were after all along was that they want to declare independence.

As to Ireland, a century ago they threw off the colonial yoke, and are thriving as a consequence, while looking on with some amusement of the willed disintegration of their former colonial masters.
 


GT49er

Well-known member
Feb 1, 2009
47,254
Gloucester
The last one was in 2014 so I assume Sturgeon and the SNP would accept having one each nine years, should they get their wish to have a second referendum in 2023?

That way, should it all go pear-shaped, the good people of Scotland would be given the opportunity to reverse their decision in 2032 and re-join the union.

Or is it as you say, just keep going until the desired outcome is achieved and then never talk about it again?
Sturgeon and the SNP would accept a referendum any time. As I said, for seismic events like referenda, 40 years is about right (the difference between the two Europe votes and the last two Scottish independence votes (on which they've voted 'no' twice already).
So, 2054 it is. Let it be so.
 




Titanic

Super Moderator
Helpful Moderator
Jul 5, 2003
39,215
West Sussex
History will judge. Map of the world will look as wildly different 100 years from now as it looked 100 years ago or even as it looks now. There will be an independent Scotland, united Ireland, Spanish Gibraltar, Argentinian Falklands etc etc
Two of those might come about by a popular vote, which is always possible... the other two would be acts of aggression / abandonment or a massive swing in public sentiment that seems much less likely.
 


nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
17,792
Gods country fortnightly
Given today's decision the ONLY way Scotland can hope to get Westminster to agree to IndyRef2 is if after a General Election they hold the balance of power and the largest party agree to give them their referendum in return for their support over the forthcoming parliament.

But the Conservative (and Unionist) Party would never agree to this by dint of their own constitution, while Labour would be potentially agreeing to a redrawn electorate without Scotland which - historically, until recently, has been a happy hunting ground for them re Westminster seats.

And if it were a Labour coalition agreeing to this concession it would be a Labour Party without a majority.

I suppose if it were down to Holyrood to decide then they could call for an IndyRef2 periodically until they eventually got the result they required, and this would undermine confidence permanently in the UK as an entity.

The bottom line is the Scots as a race are more left-wing and pro-Europe than their English counterparts.

Personally, I find it sad that England and Scotland have this permanently disfunctional relationship and yet - just a few hundred miles away - the 6 million population of Denmark sit atop the much larger population of Germany with a very respectful and healthy relationship, both under the aegis of the EU.
Think a Labour government would be bad news for in independence movement, the relationship is likely to be more constructive than under the universally hated Tories.

I could be wrong but Johnson was peak Sturgeon, and even then getting over 50% in any polls was been a struggle
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
50,418
Goldstone
And there I was thinking that the majority government in Scotland (SNP-Scottish Greens) were calling for a referendum on independence, but now I've discovered that what they were after all along was that they want to declare independence.
Yes, you're confused. Different parts of a country cannot declare independence, even if they ask the people in that region. For example, Cornwall also don't have the right to have a referendum on independence.
 


Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
52,068
Faversham
Now saying that the next GE will be a de facto referendum so in order to do that I guess they will have to run with just the 1 policy?
If I were a jock living in Scotland I'd back labour. All voting SNP does is help keep the tories in power.

And before the PR gang appears, having PR would give the SNP fewer seats not more because the number of seats they get in Scotland is disproportionate to their share of the vote.

And with a labour government with a Blaire-style majority this will give Scottish socialists (who constitute the majority of SNP supporters - ironically) more of a national say.

That said, if the jocks vote to have another referendum they should be allowed to have one. If not, they are no longer an independent country, entitled to, for example, their own national football team.

I'm sure someone will be along soon to explain how the English can have their cake and eat it by not allowing another referendum (not enough time has passed unlike with being a member of the common market; there have been no substantial constitutional changes since Scotland 'joined' the UK, unlike the situation with the common market - i.e., NOBODY voted to join the EU).
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
52,068
Faversham
Yes, you're confused. Different parts of a country cannot declare independence, even if they ask the people in that region. For example, Cornwall also don't have the right to have a referendum on independence.
But Scotland is a country, whereas Cornwall isn't.
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,956
Hove
Sturgeon and the SNP would accept a referendum any time. As I said, for seismic events like referenda, 40 years is about right (the difference between the two Europe votes and the last two Scottish independence votes (on which they've voted 'no' twice already).
So, 2054 it is. Let it be so.
They shouldn't happen full stop. Far from democratic as the last one proved.
 


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