Spain in crisis

[Stat Brother]

I thought we might be able to sign Tomer Hemed from Mallorca.

 

[wunt be druv]

We usually holiday in Spain or its Islands,how much of an impact would it have if the British stopped going there?

 

[abc]

There is absolutely no way UKIP is on par with the BNP. This is where I think people have got it so wrong. All UKIP want is a halt on immigration which I think is fair enough. There is nothing wrong with saying it, and there is nothing racist about it. Calling someone a name because of the colour of their skin makes you a racist.

You need to look at the size of this country and amount of people who have come to live and work here. That's fine but you need the houses, jobs, schools, doctors, hospitals to back it up, which we don't.

There was economic integration before the Euro.

Before the Euro I agree. I was really thinking of the EU as a whole rather than the currency. It maybe that the Euro has proved to be a step in economic integration too far.

Look more closely at UKIP policies. If the BNP published the same there would be the usual anti right outrage. It is no coincidence that UKIP are looking to get votes from the disenchanted extreme right wings Tories.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Before the Euro I agree. I was really thinking of the EU as a whole rather than the currency. It maybe that the Euro has proved to be a step in economic integration too far.

Look more closely at UKIP policies. If the BNP published the same there would be the usual anti right outrage. It is no coincidence that UKIP are looking to get votes from the disenchanted extreme right wings Tories.

I just don't get how people can lump UKIP in with the BNP that's all. People are voting for UKIP as a protest vote, and because of their stance on the Euro and immigration matters.
I have read UKIP's manifesto and there is absolutely nothing in there that is racist.

Secondly why is Nigel Farage the only one telling the truth about the Euro, while all the other politicians seem to be pussy footing around the subject. He is offering a different opinion and some very valid points about it, that is what people want to hear rather than people saying sorry.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Until all of this happened UKIP was a bit of a joke, all golf jumpers, gin and tonic and jaguars...the mystery is, despite all the chaos on the continent, Farage has failed to make any real headway. I know he is a bit of a piss artist but he has been handed Europes head on a platter and he has not scored any massive points yet.

Britain is waiting for someone to step up on this. Whoever does it will win the next election hands down.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

UKIP can be viewed as right wing at grass roots level and local activists have similar ideologies to the BNP on immigration and islamification. UKIP will pick up votes not only from BNP but disaffected Tories who have seen their party not moving enough to the right.

 

[Mr Terrific]

To be fair, unlike Greece, Spain kept their house in order and didn't overspend during the good times. The property bubble burst and the shit hit the fan!

Spain was an economic basket case for YEARS leading up to the latest crisis. They routinely ran a budget deficit of 4, 5, even 6% throughout the 90s before managing a small surplus in the three years prior to 2008.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I think you've just neatly encapsulated why it IS the fault of the Euro. Where was the central fiscal policy? Why wasn't this dealt with when the Euro has launched? I know the answer btw.

I disagree. The Euro had its faults but these are now being addressed. I have much more faith in Merkel and the Euro than I do in Osborne and the pound. To a degree I think it's futile debating the merits at the moment as so much is going on but in 4-5 years time I believe continental Europe will be strong. Where we will be I have no idea but a total lack of investment, education and training of the next generation tells me it will not be good.

 

[beorhthelm]

I disagree. The Euro had its faults but these are now being addressed.

the main problem with the Euro is that 3-4 years into a problem they are still talking about possible solutions. addressed? the solution was presented years ago, but rejected. and again, and again. Germans, rightly, dont want to underwrite the rest of europe without fiscal controls; the rest of europe, rightly too, doesnt want Germany to dictate their fiscal policy. deadlock. it wont be resolved until one side wins over the other and that will result in great resentment from the losing side. or they can suffer the moderate resentment of the status quo. not a happy camp either way.

in the case of Greece and Portugal, lesser extent Italy and Spain (and France coming up on the rails) the reason they are where they are is because there were no fiscal controls. to impose them now will lead to years of austerity, or else you have to pump 100s of billions into their economies (underwritten by others) hoping they will behave themselvs in the future. without deeper more centralised EU control across the Eurozone, that wont work anyway. but the EU structures are broken, too many national interests, too many silly consessions need to be made (so many parliment buildings), too little real democracy and accountability at the heart of the project.

 

[KingKev]

Spain was an economic basket case for YEARS leading up to the latest crisis. They routinely ran a budget deficit of 4, 5, even 6% throughout the 90s before managing a small surplus in the three years prior to 2008.

Yes and the deficit would've been way higher without all the EU (German, Uk and Dutch taxpayers') cash poured into Spanish regional coffers. Much of the cash was used pretty well, and turned some parts in the east and south around from the 3rd world positions they were in post-Franco, but the over aggressive growth plans and over-protectionism of the Spanish government has stored up the massive problems they have now.

1. Weak, under-developed banking system that concentrated on buying cheap assets abroad with taxpayer bungs (Spain only country in Europe that allows goodwill to be tax-deductible as a general rule). World financial crisis has shown up the issues clearly.
2. Loss of €bns of EU money to the eastern expansion countries. C de Valencia lost over €3bn pa alone and is now a complete basket case without it, as the only industries it has are a) tourism and b) rice production of which 90% stays inside Spain.
3. Recession and house price collapses in Northern Europe whipped the legs away from the Spanish property market, which was basically fuelled by UK, German and Scandinavian investment in 2nd homes as middle aged people leveraged the capital increases in their first homes to draw down cash and invest overseas.
4. Spanish economy uniquely exposed to its own construction industry. At the peak of EU funding and Northern European house buying, c 25% of GDP was in construction (probably way more than that if you looked at the black economy as well). Average values for northern europe would be something like 12%-18%. This was accentuated by protectionist laws meaning you had to be Spanish domiciled to be first or second contractor in any major construction schemes. So when the merry-go-round stopped, the sh1t really hit the fan everywhere other than Barcelona, Madrid and the big Basque industrial cities that want F-all to do with Spain anyway.
5. Size of black economy coupled with inter-regional competition for central / EU funds leading to mass-scale corruption has leaked €bns from the economy.
6. Tax enforcement has been weak, other than when applied to non-Spanish nationals and companies.
7. Tourist economy has nose-dived with the Northern Europeans travelling to the South, East and islands less frequently, not staying as long and spending way less cash when they do go.

Spain is a basket case. It was a 3rd World country in 1975 and has sucked in €bns to try and rectify that, but the growth that cash fuelled could not have transformed the economy to be ready to stand on its own feet yet. Spain produces no more 'stuff' than we do, and the increase in living standards there have been driven by EU cash, private inflows from Northern Europe and massive borrowings. The people are on the streets as they have very short memories - half a generation ago the quality of state-provided infrastructure, overall employment levels, average salaries, working conditions, pensions and welfare state that they achieved in the Noughties would not even have been a pipe dream. Now they are still hugely better off on average than they were in the seventies, eighties and early nineties, despite the crisis etc.

Having said that, if a few more of their flair soccer-ballists want to come and live and work in Brighton to escape what's happening at home, then I'm gonna be there with a Spanish flag and a few hearty "bienvenido's"....

 

[tgretton87]

I thought we might be able to sign Tomer Hemed from Mallorca.

Your really upset that your OP has been lost in this economic debate haha. Any way outside the top 10 in La liga wages are relativity low I think in the future the Championship would look like a good way of younger Spanish prospects a route into English Football. The problem would be the weather some continentals would just go missing in the winter months.

 

[Stat Brother]

Your really upset that your OP has been lost in this economic debate haha. Any way outside the top 10 in La liga wages are relativity low I think in the future the Championship would look like a good way of younger Spanish prospects a route into English Football. The problem would be the weather some continentals would just go missing in the winter months.

It wouldn't be so bad if the debate gradually moved towards an economic one.
But no, this is NSC.
I see your views and raise you mine!

I must admit I thought Vicente would be off in January, but I'm not so sure now esp if the situation gets worse.
Not to mention other potential legends following V Bruno and Spanish Dave.

 

[Wozza]

Footballers in Spain get massive tax breaks. They're in their own economic bubble - although, of course, the clubs aren't.

 

[gordonchas]

Footballers in Spain get massive tax breaks. They're in their own economic bubble - although, of course, the clubs aren't.

The tax break you're referring to was amended in 2010. Anyone receiving a salary of more than 600k euros p.a. is now excluded from it, so it doesn't apply to any top footballers.

It only ever applied to foreigners, by the way, it never applied to Spanish nationals.

Not that it made any difference. With their image rights contracts set-up through shell companies, Premier League footballers weren't paying any more tax than those playing in Spain.

 

[Triggaaar]

Not quite the debate about us cherry picking more Spanish stars, I was expecting, but hey that's NSC.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Yes and the deficit would've been way higher without all the EU (German, Uk and Dutch taxpayers') cash poured into Spanish regional coffers. Much of the cash was used pretty well, and turned some parts in the east and south around from the 3rd world positions they were in post-Franco, but the over aggressive growth plans and over-protectionism of the Spanish government has stored up the massive problems they have now.

1. Weak, under-developed banking system that concentrated on buying cheap assets abroad with taxpayer bungs (Spain only country in Europe that allows goodwill to be tax-deductible as a general rule). World financial crisis has shown up the issues clearly.
2. Loss of €bns of EU money to the eastern expansion countries. C de Valencia lost over €3bn pa alone and is now a complete basket case without it, as the only industries it has are a) tourism and b) rice production of which 90% stays inside Spain.
3. Recession and house price collapses in Northern Europe whipped the legs away from the Spanish property market, which was basically fuelled by UK, German and Scandinavian investment in 2nd homes as middle aged people leveraged the capital increases in their first homes to draw down cash and invest overseas.
4. Spanish economy uniquely exposed to its own construction industry. At the peak of EU funding and Northern European house buying, c 25% of GDP was in construction (probably way more than that if you looked at the black economy as well). Average values for northern europe would be something like 12%-18%. This was accentuated by protectionist laws meaning you had to be Spanish domiciled to be first or second contractor in any major construction schemes. So when the merry-go-round stopped, the sh1t really hit the fan everywhere other than Barcelona, Madrid and the big Basque industrial cities that want F-all to do with Spain anyway.
5. Size of black economy coupled with inter-regional competition for central / EU funds leading to mass-scale corruption has leaked €bns from the economy.
6. Tax enforcement has been weak, other than when applied to non-Spanish nationals and companies.
7. Tourist economy has nose-dived with the Northern Europeans travelling to the South, East and islands less frequently, not staying as long and spending way less cash when they do go.

Spain is a basket case. It was a 3rd World country in 1975 and has sucked in €bns to try and rectify that, but the growth that cash fuelled could not have transformed the economy to be ready to stand on its own feet yet. Spain produces no more 'stuff' than we do, and the increase in living standards there have been driven by EU cash, private inflows from Northern Europe and massive borrowings. The people are on the streets as they have very short memories - half a generation ago the quality of state-provided infrastructure, overall employment levels, average salaries, working conditions, pensions and welfare state that they achieved in the Noughties would not even have been a pipe dream. Now they are still hugely better off on average than they were in the seventies, eighties and early nineties, despite the crisis etc.

Having said that, if a few more of their flair soccer-ballists want to come and live and work in Brighton to escape what's happening at home, then I'm gonna be there with a Spanish flag and a few hearty "bienvenido's"....

In summary then:

The Spanish economy relied in rich northern Europeans buying a place in the sun and leveraged huge debt to fund a behemoth public sector on the back of Northern European fiscal discipline and low borrowing rates.

Sounds like they were taking the piss and relying on others to pay for their ridiculous economy.

 

[Titus]

The Euro was never going to work, as to put it very simply, there are industrious nations and lazy nations, and you can't put the same regulations on both. I said it ten years ago and I say it now.

 

[KingKev]

In summary then:

The Spanish economy relied in rich northern Europeans buying a place in the sun and leveraged huge debt to fund a behemoth public sector on the back of Northern European fiscal discipline and low borrowing rates.

Sounds like they were taking the piss and relying on others to pay for their ridiculous economy.

That just about summarises it - cheers!

 

[Stat Brother]

We may be able to poach some coaching staff too.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

there are......lazy nations.

Fair point. I wonder if this is one of the reasons we didn't join?