I think the Premier and football league need to look again at the penalties for going into administration. The chances are Pompey were going down this season anyway so now they have their financial slate wiped clean, can start again on a even keel next season and that is just plain WRONG.
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Pompey seem to be in a tad of bother
- Thread starter CHAPPERS
- Start date
Taken from the press release from the club spokesman:
He added: "We would like to ask the fans, staff and management of Portsmouth for their support and patience should this step be taken as we believe it is the only route left open."
[but no montion of the poor bastards they owe money to]
One of the parties interested in buying the troubled club has revealed he will not be able to take over the club ahead of Monday's winding up petition. New Zealand-based businessman Victor Cattermole is considering buying Pompey through his investment group but told The Guardian newspaper: "In an ideal world, we would like to purchase the club before Monday, but we will not be rushed."
[In other words, dump the debt then we can step in and use the funds to buy our way back into the Prem without having to have the debt burden]
It's sickening.
He added: "We would like to ask the fans, staff and management of Portsmouth for their support and patience should this step be taken as we believe it is the only route left open."
[but no montion of the poor bastards they owe money to]
One of the parties interested in buying the troubled club has revealed he will not be able to take over the club ahead of Monday's winding up petition. New Zealand-based businessman Victor Cattermole is considering buying Pompey through his investment group but told The Guardian newspaper: "In an ideal world, we would like to purchase the club before Monday, but we will not be rushed."
[In other words, dump the debt then we can step in and use the funds to buy our way back into the Prem without having to have the debt burden]
It's sickening.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,428
problem with "dump the debt" is that if the HMRC doesnt play ball, the company will be wound up. they got tucked up on the Leeds situation and i think they are looking to make a point on Pompey. unless pompey have a similar secret offshore creditor who can out-vote the HMRC (ie have a bigger debt claim) i dont see Pompey existing Tuesday.
Pavilionaire
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 30,767
How can Redknapp be accused of starting the rot at West Ham when he brought on Glen Johnson, Rio Ferdinand, Frank Lampard, Michael Carrick, Joe Cole and Jermain Defoe?That's £100million of talent right now.
Levy and Harry look a pretty decent duo in the market - they've milked Pompey re Crouch, Krancjar and Kaboul, offloaded shite like Boateng, got Keane off the wage bill and goals out of Pavlychenko, got Defoe back for a good price, Levy appears to have done well with £30mill for Berbatov too, and Pompey are knocking the edges off O'Hara.
Maybe the finger should be pointed more at Peter Storrie - a pretty weak chairman.
Levy and Harry look a pretty decent duo in the market - they've milked Pompey re Crouch, Krancjar and Kaboul, offloaded shite like Boateng, got Keane off the wage bill and goals out of Pavlychenko, got Defoe back for a good price, Levy appears to have done well with £30mill for Berbatov too, and Pompey are knocking the edges off O'Hara.
Maybe the finger should be pointed more at Peter Storrie - a pretty weak chairman.
clapham_gull
Legacy Fan
- Aug 20, 2003
- 25,509
Excuse me for possibly being a bit thick, but I understand that the points deduction for going into administration in the Premiership is 9 points.
Is it the case in the prem that if the points deduction had no effect on relegation and the team get relegated anyway, that the deduction is rolled over into the Championship ?
If so, wouldn't it be unfair to another team in the championship if, in the case they went into administration within the season they would be deducted an extra point than Portsmouth ?
Is it the case in the prem that if the points deduction had no effect on relegation and the team get relegated anyway, that the deduction is rolled over into the Championship ?
If so, wouldn't it be unfair to another team in the championship if, in the case they went into administration within the season they would be deducted an extra point than Portsmouth ?
Harry has managed Bournemouth, West Ham, Portsmouth, Southampton, They have all had severe financial problems since, I'm sure it's a coincidence but I'm glad I don't support Spurs.
Decent well run clubs do yes.
Again, a well run club would say "OK thats fine, clear your desk"
Plus made a profit on Bent and Didi
Barrel of Fun
Abort, retry, fail
Three Words.
Harry Bleedin' Redknapp
Harry Bleedin' Redknapp
Dick Knights Mumm
Take me Home Falmer Road
If they are allowed to go into administration - would that mean the Revenue get pennies in the pound and the players (including I assume Sol Campbell) get their whack in full ?
If that is the case - then the Revenue should pull the plug.
If that is the case - then the Revenue should pull the plug.
Psychobilly freakout
HellBilly
I used to think I understood this. Going into administration is not going out of business. It means (I think) that an Administrator is appointed to run the club with a view to getting the club back on an even footing. This means making decisions that are not motivated by football success but that are motivated by survival. In reality this often means sacking a lot of people and selling off assets in order to keep the club going. Ultimately, for many companies (clubs) Administration is a step towards closure, but that's not its function.
In this case would the Administrator try to reach an agreement with the creditors to pay them Xp in the pounds as part of the process of survival? If he can pull that off - and therefore dump a large part of the debt - then presumably a buyer could be found since their investment (funny term thaty for a football club) would be used to grow/improve the club, not service the debt. Hence the quote by potential buyer above about "won't be rushed".
As for the deduction - my understanding was the same as clapham gull. If they were going to get relegated anyway the 9 point deduction rolls over to next year since it would not be a punishment. This was changed because Leeds "dumped" their deduction knowing they were going to be relegated the season they went into administration to try to start with a clean slate the following year.
In this case would the Administrator try to reach an agreement with the creditors to pay them Xp in the pounds as part of the process of survival? If he can pull that off - and therefore dump a large part of the debt - then presumably a buyer could be found since their investment (funny term thaty for a football club) would be used to grow/improve the club, not service the debt. Hence the quote by potential buyer above about "won't be rushed".
As for the deduction - my understanding was the same as clapham gull. If they were going to get relegated anyway the 9 point deduction rolls over to next year since it would not be a punishment. This was changed because Leeds "dumped" their deduction knowing they were going to be relegated the season they went into administration to try to start with a clean slate the following year.
Dick Knights Mumm
Take me Home Falmer Road
But THRK - Do the Revenue get paid in full ? If not - they should order the winding up. It is our money.
And are all the football contracts honoured in full. Does James still trouser his £50K a week ?
And are all the football contracts honoured in full. Does James still trouser his £50K a week ?
I thought I heard a snippet on the radio this morning saying Pompey would start in the Championship on -20 (minus 20) points.
Found a Guardian article about it - http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/23/portsmouth-administration-points-deduction
Found a Guardian article about it - http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/23/portsmouth-administration-points-deduction
I don't know. I'm trying to establish if my understanding is correct. If it is, would the tax man be happier with something (a deal from the Administrator) or nothing (because the club have been wound up)?
If you wind the club up, the Receiver takes over and he liquidates the assets and there is a priority for payment. I think employees are near the top of the heap and oddly, Inland Rev is not. So doubt they would wind them up other than to send a message. And if Portsmouth go into Administration, I don't think they can be wound up anyway for some time in order to give the Administrator time to work out a solution.
Great article Bozza - thank you:
Portsmouth will almost certainly become the first Premier League club to enter administration on Friday in a move that would effectively condemn them to relegation. It could also result in the club starting next season in the Championship with a further reduction of up to 20 points.
Entering administration will result in an automatic nine-point penalty from the Premier League, leaving Portsmouth 17 points adrift of safety. But the punishment from the Football League next *season is likely to be far harsher.
Portsmouth would only avoid a *further points deduction from the Football League if the administrator can reach a company voluntary arrangement, a deal with creditors to accept only a proportion of the club's debts.
That will be extremely hard to achieve, however, because league rules state that football creditors must be paid in full and Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs will insist on the same. Portsmouth must find at least £22m to settle with them alone. Some £10m is outstanding in unpaid transfer fees, including for their former midfielder Sulley Muntari, signed from Udinese and now with Internazionale, and at least £12.1m is owed to HMRC.
There have been four previous cases of Football League clubs failing to reach CVAs, involving Leeds United, *Rotherham, Bournemouth and Luton Town, and they were handed penalties of 15, 17, 17 and 20 points respectively.
That raises the prospect of Portsmouth suffering consecutive relegations and dropping into League One. But administration has emerged as the most attractive option for Portsmouth because it would lead to the suspension of the winding-up petition served by HMRC, which is due to be heard in the high court on Monday, and ensure the club can continue. Portsmouth confirmed in a statement that administration is highly likely.
"Businessman Balram Chainrai, the owner of Portsmouth Football Club, has today served notice that the club will go into administration unless new owners can be found by Friday," the club said.
"Mr Chainrai and fellow investors from his Portpin investment vehicle are in London to continue talks with representatives of four different groups interested in buying the club, but have had to reluctantly accept that it is now unlikely a deal can be done before a winding-up hearing, due to be heard in the high court on Monday."
Phil Hall, a spokesman for Chainrai, pledged that the owner would fund any administration from his "own pocket". He said: "Mr Chainrai has agreed to continue funding the club going forward until its long-term future is decided. He will also pay for the administration process out of his own pocket. There is now only a short window of opportunity for buyers to come in with a credible offer. We have to be realistic and having the club wound up is not an option as far as we are concerned."
Chainrai is among the club's creditors. He is due £17m, which he injected to help the previous owner, Ali al-Faraj. Another of the club's former owners, Sacha *Gaydamak, is owed £30.5m. Whether they press for complete repayment may be academic in Portsmouth's fight to avoid a points deduction next season given the need to settle in full with football creditors and the taxman.
The club may potentially be allowed by the Premier League to sell players while in administration, outside the transfer window. "Administration would mean the club re-emerging as a healthy financial entity," Hall said. "The club would then become an attractive proposition for a potential buyer who could invest new funds in rebuilding the club's future.
"We would like to ask the fans, the staff and management of Portsmouth Football Club for their support and patience should this step be taken, as they believe it is the only route left open to them. The serving of this notice means the winding-up order is automatically suspended. It means the club is safe, it can fulfil its fixtures and as far as is possible, it is business as usual."
Portsmouth will almost certainly become the first Premier League club to enter administration on Friday in a move that would effectively condemn them to relegation. It could also result in the club starting next season in the Championship with a further reduction of up to 20 points.
Entering administration will result in an automatic nine-point penalty from the Premier League, leaving Portsmouth 17 points adrift of safety. But the punishment from the Football League next *season is likely to be far harsher.
Portsmouth would only avoid a *further points deduction from the Football League if the administrator can reach a company voluntary arrangement, a deal with creditors to accept only a proportion of the club's debts.
That will be extremely hard to achieve, however, because league rules state that football creditors must be paid in full and Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs will insist on the same. Portsmouth must find at least £22m to settle with them alone. Some £10m is outstanding in unpaid transfer fees, including for their former midfielder Sulley Muntari, signed from Udinese and now with Internazionale, and at least £12.1m is owed to HMRC.
There have been four previous cases of Football League clubs failing to reach CVAs, involving Leeds United, *Rotherham, Bournemouth and Luton Town, and they were handed penalties of 15, 17, 17 and 20 points respectively.
That raises the prospect of Portsmouth suffering consecutive relegations and dropping into League One. But administration has emerged as the most attractive option for Portsmouth because it would lead to the suspension of the winding-up petition served by HMRC, which is due to be heard in the high court on Monday, and ensure the club can continue. Portsmouth confirmed in a statement that administration is highly likely.
"Businessman Balram Chainrai, the owner of Portsmouth Football Club, has today served notice that the club will go into administration unless new owners can be found by Friday," the club said.
"Mr Chainrai and fellow investors from his Portpin investment vehicle are in London to continue talks with representatives of four different groups interested in buying the club, but have had to reluctantly accept that it is now unlikely a deal can be done before a winding-up hearing, due to be heard in the high court on Monday."
Phil Hall, a spokesman for Chainrai, pledged that the owner would fund any administration from his "own pocket". He said: "Mr Chainrai has agreed to continue funding the club going forward until its long-term future is decided. He will also pay for the administration process out of his own pocket. There is now only a short window of opportunity for buyers to come in with a credible offer. We have to be realistic and having the club wound up is not an option as far as we are concerned."
Chainrai is among the club's creditors. He is due £17m, which he injected to help the previous owner, Ali al-Faraj. Another of the club's former owners, Sacha *Gaydamak, is owed £30.5m. Whether they press for complete repayment may be academic in Portsmouth's fight to avoid a points deduction next season given the need to settle in full with football creditors and the taxman.
The club may potentially be allowed by the Premier League to sell players while in administration, outside the transfer window. "Administration would mean the club re-emerging as a healthy financial entity," Hall said. "The club would then become an attractive proposition for a potential buyer who could invest new funds in rebuilding the club's future.
"We would like to ask the fans, the staff and management of Portsmouth Football Club for their support and patience should this step be taken, as they believe it is the only route left open to them. The serving of this notice means the winding-up order is automatically suspended. It means the club is safe, it can fulfil its fixtures and as far as is possible, it is business as usual."
There may be an escape route for Pompey though. Doesn't a CVA have to be agreed by at least 75% of the creditors by amount owed?
If so, HMRC's debt may be less than 25% of the total debt and they alone would not be able to stop a CVA going ahead.
If that's the case, maybe Chainrai and Gaydamak would be able to push through a '10p in the £' type CVA, HMRC wouldn't be able to stop that happening and Pompey emerge not long from now debt free and good to go again.
If so, HMRC's debt may be less than 25% of the total debt and they alone would not be able to stop a CVA going ahead.
If that's the case, maybe Chainrai and Gaydamak would be able to push through a '10p in the £' type CVA, HMRC wouldn't be able to stop that happening and Pompey emerge not long from now debt free and good to go again.
Dick Knights Mumm
Take me Home Falmer Road
Ahhhh. That seems a little more reasonable from HMRC's perspective. We should be able to take our money out BEFORE the football creditors.
Also - when they go into Administration - can they re-negotiate the football contracts - or do they remain in place ? If they can't sell Muntari say, do they have to keep paying him at the same rate for the length of his contract ?
Also - when they go into Administration - can they re-negotiate the football contracts - or do they remain in place ? If they can't sell Muntari say, do they have to keep paying him at the same rate for the length of his contract ?
Dick Knights Mumm
Take me Home Falmer Road
Which would be a disgrace.
clapham_gull
Legacy Fan
- Aug 20, 2003
- 25,509
Be nice to see a break down of their debts, remembering that under league rules football debts have to be paid in full.
The total debt (whichever report you believe) is somewhere inbetween 60 and 70 million.
According to reports they owe 7.4 million in tax and a disputed 4.7 million in PAYE and National Insurance Contributions.
Other reports suggest their total tax arrears are 18 million.
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