Indefatigable
New member
- Mar 23, 2004
- 118
Gunter - leave it. Let it go. There is only one of her. You can do more (if not better).
Piers Morgan should be tried and imprisoned.
- Thread starter Uncle Spielberg
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looney
Banned
- Jul 7, 2003
- 15,652
But I'm sorry - the Geneva Convention does NOT determine which side is behaving better although I too am in no doubt that British troops are mostly kept in check, unlike the rabble of Arabs who think hacking off the heads of innocent civilians is fair and reasonable in the name of war.
One more thing - it probably is easy to find where the blame lies for this chain of command breakdown, but if it's anyone too near the top it'll be whitewashed - the people at the top rarely get punished for their poor quality actions. That is why your bum chum, dubya, will never be impeached for taking his country into war on a premise that turns out to be a LIE.
These to arguements above are connected and wrong.
First,
it probably is easy to find where the blame lies for this chain of command breakdown, but if it's anyone too near the top it'll be whitewashed
Think about it, if its near the top it would be more widespread and systematic rather than isolated at regimental or corp level as in Iraq.
- the Geneva Convention does NOT determine which side is behaving better
Yes it does, you should try reading it. It deals a fair bit with intent.
Both US AtG missiles and iraq GtA missiles hit market places, this was not deliberate so not in violation of the Articles. If you tune into the Hague you will find that all trials deal with intentional abuses of human rights. In wars civillians get killed, it happens, but is it intentional?
shit the yanks killed more of our men in desert storm than the iraqi's, that cos of the US culture of gung ho incompetence, but not intentional.
One more thing - it probably is easy to find where the blame lies for this chain of command breakdown, but if it's anyone too near the top it'll be whitewashed - the people at the top rarely get punished for their poor quality actions. That is why your bum chum, dubya, will never be impeached for taking his country into war on a premise that turns out to be a LIE.
These to arguements above are connected and wrong.
First,
it probably is easy to find where the blame lies for this chain of command breakdown, but if it's anyone too near the top it'll be whitewashed
Think about it, if its near the top it would be more widespread and systematic rather than isolated at regimental or corp level as in Iraq.
- the Geneva Convention does NOT determine which side is behaving better
Yes it does, you should try reading it. It deals a fair bit with intent.
Both US AtG missiles and iraq GtA missiles hit market places, this was not deliberate so not in violation of the Articles. If you tune into the Hague you will find that all trials deal with intentional abuses of human rights. In wars civillians get killed, it happens, but is it intentional?
shit the yanks killed more of our men in desert storm than the iraqi's, that cos of the US culture of gung ho incompetence, but not intentional.
Row Z Creased Shirt
New member
maffew said:
Whatever the provenance of the pictures, unfortunately plenty of iraqi's knew that the story behind them was true, as released prisoners were letting their friends and families know exactly what was going on in those prisons.
As for Piers Morgan, if the pictures are fake and he knew they were before he published them, he should resign, pure and simple. The story that they back up is almost certainly true and he should have just gone with the testimony of the soldiers and not overegged it with set up photographs.
If he genuinely thought they were real, and he was duped, then he should come clean and admit it, but not neccesarily resign.
For me the govt are going to have to do more than just say they are fake to convince me that they are. Where's the truck? Is it still in preston?
However after the revelations of the past week, ultimately whether these pictures are real or not is beside the point, as there are huge bodies of evidence showing systematic abuse of iraqi detainees throughout Iraq. And it is that abuse that will undermine the coalition rather than a bit of possibly egotistical editorship by Piers Morgan.
Morgan has fcuked up bigtime. I dont think that I can ever recall such irresponsible behavior from an editor, to publish fake photos when the situation in Iraq is as delicate as it is, thereby endangering the lives of our troops is absolutely disgraceful.
I dont know about treason but certainly members of the Royal Lancs should pay him a visit when they return from Iraq for recklessly putting their lives in danger.
I dont know about treason but certainly members of the Royal Lancs should pay him a visit when they return from Iraq for recklessly putting their lives in danger.
Uncle Spielberg
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #46
The Iraqi's will believe them to be true no matter what investigations are made. More importantly it gives Al Queda a sick justification to make excuses for their terrorism and murdering spree.
Morgan's photos helped to be head the American imo.
However a Dog lead around the neck of an Iraqi no matter how wrong is not the same kettle of fish as carving a mans head off with a kitchen knife and holding it up to the camera saying " God is great ".
I would love to tell Morgan what I thought of him with some well chosen phrases such as wanker, traitor, scum and a few dozens rotten eggs hurled in his direction.
Morgan's photos helped to be head the American imo.
However a Dog lead around the neck of an Iraqi no matter how wrong is not the same kettle of fish as carving a mans head off with a kitchen knife and holding it up to the camera saying " God is great ".
I would love to tell Morgan what I thought of him with some well chosen phrases such as wanker, traitor, scum and a few dozens rotten eggs hurled in his direction.
Albion Dan
Banned
Gareth Glover said:
Gareth you do talk some utter shit mate. Dont you think that all of the pictures of the US troops abusing Iraqis was more than enough ammunition without the Mirror pictures?
also dont forget there are MUCH worse pictures to come out from the US camp, Rape, Brutal beatings, sexual humiliation, all confirmed by US senators.
Morgan is wrong but I think you are going well over the top if you are blaming him for a US citizen being murdered. What about the hostages killed before any pictures were released?
Although what that paper did put the lives of british troups in danger, to call it treasonous is over the top. I think resignation should suffice...............................Then petrol bomb thier offices. And you can do the Sun and Star while you're at it!
pasty
A different kind of pasty
The Northstander said:
Totally agree - From another EX-Full time member of the British Forces
By publishing the pictures, Piers Morgan has further endangered the lives of British Serviceman and increased the already high hatred of anything British by the Iraqi people.
Whether the war is/was just or not is not the issue here. The pictures should not have been published until they could irrefutibly be proven to be real.
Dandyman
In London village.
Slightly off the theme but just to prove there are plently of sane and decent Americans despite the shaved monkey in the White House...
www.moveon.com
www.moveon.com
ziggy said:Although what that paper did put the lives of british troups in danger, to call it treasonous is over the top. I think resignation should suffice...............................Then petrol bomb thier offices. And you can do the Sun and Star while you're at it!
The systematic abuse of prisoners as reported by the Red Cross does not refer to this abuse by British soldiers whilst prisoners were in captivity. They refer to American soldiers, and not just in Abu Ghraib.
The reason why I am making this point is that the way this has been reported throughout the press suggests these abuses happening during the arrest process, and indeed, that's what the Mirror reports. There are only two instances of potential abuse by British soldiers of prisoners whilst in captivity to my knowledge, and the Government has already stated they are being investigated before the Red Cross report. It's very easy to jump on the bandwagon of calling our leaders liars and cheats, but there are some things we simply have to trust them on.
The reason why I am making this point is that some violence is bound to happen during the arrest process. Most of us have seen heavy-handed tactics by British police in this country to quell any potential unrest on certain occassions. Are they suddenly guilty of systematic abuse? Secondly, who the bloody hell has a camera to take this pictures during the arrest process? Surely, their time is taken up trying to get things under control.
We need a full investigation to discover exactly who is guilty of what. The Americans are knee deep in shite, and they are rightly being dragged through the mill, but the Daily Mirror has behaved in a reckless and unprofessional manner, endangering British troops that seemed to have things relatively under control in their area of command.
You can debate for hours the rights and wrongs of going to war, I for one think we should have stayed out of this war, but we are there, and the press in this country should not endanger anybody anywhere in the world without, particuarly in a volatile country like Iraq, being absolutely clear of the facts. A testimony of one soldier, to my mind, is not being absolutely clear.
The reason why I am making this point is that the way this has been reported throughout the press suggests these abuses happening during the arrest process, and indeed, that's what the Mirror reports. There are only two instances of potential abuse by British soldiers of prisoners whilst in captivity to my knowledge, and the Government has already stated they are being investigated before the Red Cross report. It's very easy to jump on the bandwagon of calling our leaders liars and cheats, but there are some things we simply have to trust them on.
The reason why I am making this point is that some violence is bound to happen during the arrest process. Most of us have seen heavy-handed tactics by British police in this country to quell any potential unrest on certain occassions. Are they suddenly guilty of systematic abuse? Secondly, who the bloody hell has a camera to take this pictures during the arrest process? Surely, their time is taken up trying to get things under control.
We need a full investigation to discover exactly who is guilty of what. The Americans are knee deep in shite, and they are rightly being dragged through the mill, but the Daily Mirror has behaved in a reckless and unprofessional manner, endangering British troops that seemed to have things relatively under control in their area of command.
You can debate for hours the rights and wrongs of going to war, I for one think we should have stayed out of this war, but we are there, and the press in this country should not endanger anybody anywhere in the world without, particuarly in a volatile country like Iraq, being absolutely clear of the facts. A testimony of one soldier, to my mind, is not being absolutely clear.
Row Z Creased Shirt
New member
You make some good points seagull 73, and if the mirror knew that the pictures were fake when they printed them, it was irresponsible and morgan should definitely go.
However there have been stories circulating in iraq about british abuse for months. Even so it looks like nothing compared to the americans patently obvious systematic abuse. But there are currently eight suspicious deaths in custody being investigated, and over £73,000 has already been paid out in compensation by the british army for 'abuses' by our soldiers. Ordinary Iraqis hear these stories every day from their fellow countrymen, and it is this that has destroyed the faith many iraqis had in our forces.
It also does not help the british army that the americans just seem to have gone stir crazy up at abu ghraib and baghdadi prisons, we will get tarred with their brush also.
We need clear and transparent investigations, preferably carried out by someone other than the military or pressure group to get to the bottom of what is going. The trust has gone, and it will take a lot of getting back.
However there have been stories circulating in iraq about british abuse for months. Even so it looks like nothing compared to the americans patently obvious systematic abuse. But there are currently eight suspicious deaths in custody being investigated, and over £73,000 has already been paid out in compensation by the british army for 'abuses' by our soldiers. Ordinary Iraqis hear these stories every day from their fellow countrymen, and it is this that has destroyed the faith many iraqis had in our forces.
It also does not help the british army that the americans just seem to have gone stir crazy up at abu ghraib and baghdadi prisons, we will get tarred with their brush also.
We need clear and transparent investigations, preferably carried out by someone other than the military or pressure group to get to the bottom of what is going. The trust has gone, and it will take a lot of getting back.
For me, Row Z, it does not matter with the paper knew the pictures were fake or not, they have a duty as a responsible publisher to thoroughly check their authenticity, the testimony of one or even two soldiers, is simply not enough.
Yeah I agree the American situation has not helped our own, and I don't think the Mirror pictures have had the profound effect the pictures of American abuses has had over in Iraq.
I'm disturbed by the fact that we have paid compensation to Iraqi's over 'abuses'. Here's hoping that this is the investigations that are already underway.
I also agree that the investigation must be carried out by people who do not have a vested interest in anything to do with the war, although finding those people in itself may prove difficult.
Yeah I agree the American situation has not helped our own, and I don't think the Mirror pictures have had the profound effect the pictures of American abuses has had over in Iraq.
I'm disturbed by the fact that we have paid compensation to Iraqi's over 'abuses'. Here's hoping that this is the investigations that are already underway.
I also agree that the investigation must be carried out by people who do not have a vested interest in anything to do with the war, although finding those people in itself may prove difficult.
somerset
New member
Ok look, all the views on this thread in their own way are valid, mainly because each of you have some political or moral conviction, or have heard anecdotal evidence that supports your view.
Me... well, my view is that there will always be what is often called 'fog of war' incidents from our troops, and our society's holier than thou attitude will always generate a furore in the media to sell papers etc.
A fact that i know in my heart though, is that our troops don't strap explosives to lunatic/socially vulnerable individuals with orders to pull the pin on a crowded school bus, or restaurant, or outside police stations trying to retain what little order exists in a particular area, OR take 1 minute 57 seconds to behead whilst still alive, an innocent civilian, with what is nothing more than the knife you may carve your sunday roast with (for those who saw the previous episode of this haenous practice, namely the Daniel Pearl beheading, as I did, you will know what this means).
Oh.... I hear you say, we only went to war for the oil,....... maybe we did, but the damn funds from the sale of iraqi oil only go to one place,. back to bloody Iraq.
For those of you who say why did we interfere in another country's internal affairs, well let me ask you one thing...... did you support intervention of any sort in Racist South Africa.......... let me guess the answer. YES you did,.... well Iraq was the same....... suppression of the majority, by the minority, namely the Sunni moslems holding sway over the Shias.
RANT OVER......... now back to prep for swindon, hopefully a peaceful suppression of the majority (STFC fans), by us the minority (Albion fans)
Me... well, my view is that there will always be what is often called 'fog of war' incidents from our troops, and our society's holier than thou attitude will always generate a furore in the media to sell papers etc.
A fact that i know in my heart though, is that our troops don't strap explosives to lunatic/socially vulnerable individuals with orders to pull the pin on a crowded school bus, or restaurant, or outside police stations trying to retain what little order exists in a particular area, OR take 1 minute 57 seconds to behead whilst still alive, an innocent civilian, with what is nothing more than the knife you may carve your sunday roast with (for those who saw the previous episode of this haenous practice, namely the Daniel Pearl beheading, as I did, you will know what this means).
Oh.... I hear you say, we only went to war for the oil,....... maybe we did, but the damn funds from the sale of iraqi oil only go to one place,. back to bloody Iraq.
For those of you who say why did we interfere in another country's internal affairs, well let me ask you one thing...... did you support intervention of any sort in Racist South Africa.......... let me guess the answer. YES you did,.... well Iraq was the same....... suppression of the majority, by the minority, namely the Sunni moslems holding sway over the Shias.
RANT OVER......... now back to prep for swindon, hopefully a peaceful suppression of the majority (STFC fans), by us the minority (Albion fans)
London Irish
Well-known member
Morgan has done the honourable thing and resigned. Over to you Blair, Hoon, Rumsfeld (fill in your list of blundering warmongers here)
Last edited:
Lord Bracknell
On fire
Congratulations, Gareth.London Irish said:
Uncle Spielberg
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #59
About bloody time too.
alan partridge
Active member
looney said:It didn't just happen at the hight of the troubles it was carried out sporadically throughout, as with most conflicts. This is for 2 main reasons, 1 the types who join up(They are hardly male hairdressers) and secondly a break down in the chain of command.
Shit happens
Oh and both sides are not as bad as each other, who says so? The f***ing Geneva Convention on the articles of war says so you ignorant moral relativist little wank.
Try f***ing reading it sometime moron.
Excuse me for getting a bit pissed but a few sqauddies abusing prisoners is not the same as wholesale slaughter of women and children. And its quite easy to find out where the failure in command took place, hence investigations which predate Gormless Morgans little stunt.
thought you said you were going to stop the personal insults looney
gg i love how disgusted you get with issues like this but stick your head in the sand related to any issue that concerns iraqis getting blown up/maimed/tortured etc
piers morgan - i would gladly support a return to public hangings/floggings if they were reserved for tabloid journalists
f*** it i'd do it myself.