Peace Ship Attacked

[Steve Foster]

He knew his grandmother was Jewish because she used to abide by some of the traditions according to his mother, however, his grandmother died before his mother could truly question her Jewish roots as she was very young at the time and I guess she never really thought about it and always assumed both parents must be Jewish.

What you are saying is that it is impossible for someone to be both Jewish and English? I was born in England as were my grandparents and Great Grandparents. I am Jewish. I currently live with non-Jewish flatmates. They are my best friends, yet at the same time I am involved with the Jewish Society. I do not keep many of the rules, yet I still consider myself to be an English Jew. Where is the issue?

Of course you can be Jewish (your religion) & English (your nationality, residence & domicile). One has nothing to do with the other.

We should all be proud of our identities. It makes us who we are!

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Sully, have you had a chance to read an account from one of the soldiers yet?

: Israeli commando | The Australian

Thanks for this but I think its just too hardline to be believable.... I think there can be little doubt there was a cock up on both sides.... we know from Turkish sources that there were four militants aboard who MAY have been carrying weapons and that all were killed which suggests aggression.. granted... but this is the first mention of 8 and even unofficial israeli sources have siad that there were unfortunaate innocent fatalities... which grates with this Chris Ryan-style article.

It does not convince me that a trained governement organisation who specialisess in such operations can honestly blame a small group of amateurs on a ship of hundreds of passenegrs who must have been scared shitless when helicopters appeared out of nowehere and black clad commandos started coming down ropes... even an amateur could see this was recipe for disaster... boarding by day would have at least suggested that the Israeli forces had not already made certain assumptions about the passengers and if those assumptions were correct why on earth were they carrying paintball guns?

Sorry it doesnt add up.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Of course you can be Jewish (your religion) & English (your nationality, residence & domicile). One has nothing to do with the other.

We should all be proud of our identities. It makes us who we are!

I rarely agree with you Steve but on this you are absolutely right

 

[Greeno]

Thanks for this but I think its just too hardline to be believable.... I think there can be little doubt there was a cock up on both sides.... we know from Turkish sources that there were four militants aboard who MAY have been carrying weapons and that all were killed which suggests aggression.. granted... but this is the first mention of 8 and even unofficial israeli sources have siad that there were unfortunaate innocent fatalities... which grates with this Chris Ryan-style article.

It does not convince me that a trained governement organisation who specialisess in such operations can honestly blame a small group of amateurs on a ship of hundreds of passenegrs who must have been scared shitless when helicopters appeared out of nowehere and black clad commandos started coming down ropes... even an amateur could see this was recipe for disaster... boarding by day would have at least suggested that the Israeli forces had not already made certain assumptions about the passengers and if those assumptions were correct why on earth were they carrying paintball guns?

Sorry it doesnt add up.

Sully, I'm not sure if the media in Turkey has been relaying the information or what sources you use to get your Western news so you may not have seen , but there have been reports that some of the militants who were shot have been known to have had links with Al Qaeda. These werent normal humanitarian aid workers. These were animals out to attack and to kill by whatever means necessary. They may not have had guns, but they certainly had metal poles and knives and the videos which are so easy to find prove this. Watching these videos and reading the testimonies from others who were on the ship such as one testimony from one of the 'activists' which said that she saw people carrying an unconscious israeli soldier and the women were doing their best for them to stop attacking him, makes it incredibly hard to believe that Israel is entirely at fault and that this was the activists merely acting in self defence.

Whilst I could perhaps sympathise with the people on the boat feeling scared of soldiers coming down ropes from a helicopter, it should be remembered that the soldiers boarded the other ships in the same way and were not met with such a reaction. These people were not acting in self defence Sully, and if they were, one must question what they were defending themselves from. The gun shot and knife wounds to the soldiers who are currently in hospital are a testament to this.

There are times when those who tend to side with the Israelis must acknowledge that what has happened is wrong, and there is nothing wrong that. But there are also many times when those who tend to side with the Palestinians must also recognise that what has happened is wrong. I feel this is certainly one of those times for the latter group to acknowledge that their side is not in the right this time and that they have f***ed up. And there is nothing wrong with ackowledging that. There are no material facts and no evidence which supports any of the claims that they were merely acting in self defence. It's time people abandon the 'Israel is guilty until proven innocent' and look at the facts and to what really happened with their own prejudice opinions on the side for a moment.

A good example is an interesting article by Seth Freedman who writes for The Guardian. If you read some of his articles he is not the friendliest of writers towards Israel:

Israel had no choice over Gaza flotilla | Seth Freedman | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

 

[User removed 4]

A good example is an interesting article by Seth Freedman who writes for The Guardian. If you read some of his articles he is not the friendliest of writers towards Israel:

Israel had no choice over Gaza flotilla | Seth Freedman | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

He has also served in the Israeli army, whether you're deliberately being misleading about his 'friendliness' towards Israel i dont know.

 

[Greeno]

He has also served in the Israeli army, whether you're deliberately being misleading about his 'friendliness' towards Israel i dont know.

So has Ilan Pappe and Avi Shlaim.

What is your point?

 

[User removed 4]

So has Ilan Pappe and Avi Shlaim.

What is your point?

My point is that he is British , and went all the way to Israel to join the army , which you failed to mention when portraying him as simply a guardian writer who ' isnt the friendliest to israel ', misleading imo.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Sully, I'm not sure if the media in Turkey has been relaying the information or what sources you use to get your Western news so you may not have seen , but there have been reports that some of the militants who were shot have been known to have had links with Al Qaeda. These werent normal humanitarian aid workers. These were animals out to attack and to kill by whatever means necessary. They may not have had guns, but they certainly had metal poles and knives and the videos which are so easy to find prove this. Watching these videos and reading the testimonies from others who were on the ship such as one testimony from one of the 'activists' which said that she saw people carrying an unconscious israeli soldier and the women were doing their best for them to stop attacking him, makes it incredibly hard to believe that Israel is entirely at fault and that this was the activists merely acting in self defence.

Whilst I could perhaps sympathise with the people on the boat feeling scared of soldiers coming down ropes from a helicopter, it should be remembered that the soldiers boarded the other ships in the same way and were not met with such a reaction. These people were not acting in self defence Sully, and if they were, one must question what they were defending themselves from. The gun shot and knife wounds to the soldiers who are currently in hospital are a testament to this.

There are times when those who tend to side with the Israelis must acknowledge that what has happened is wrong, and there is nothing wrong that. But there are also many times when those who tend to side with the Palestinians must also recognise that what has happened is wrong. I feel this is certainly one of those times for the latter group to acknowledge that their side is not in the right this time and that they have f***ed up. And there is nothing wrong with ackowledging that. There are no material facts and no evidence which supports any of the claims that they were merely acting in self defence. It's time people abandon the 'Israel is guilty until proven innocent' and look at the facts and to what really happened with their own prejudice opinions on the side for a moment.

A good example is an interesting article by Seth Freedman who writes for The Guardian. If you read some of his articles he is not the friendliest of writers towards Israel:

Israel had no choice over Gaza flotilla | Seth Freedman | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

Sorry Greeno, you are a bit out of date.... near the bottom of this article you will see the Israeli govt has now admitted there were no Al-Qaeda operatives.

This article also shows how out of control the Israeli governement is getting. If the british Govt had done such a thing we would now have resignations all over the place.

Israel forced to apologise for YouTube spoof of Gaza flotilla | World news | The Guardian

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

My point is that he is British , and went all the way to Israel to join the army , which you failed to mention when portraying him as simply a guardian writer who ' isnt the friendliest to israel ', misleading imo.

'Isn't the friendliest to Israel' can be read in a number of ways. Avi Schliem is friendly to Israel... he just dones't agree with all its policies. I think we need to be clear that not ALL Israelis support the governemnt and the army...we should remember that in fact power in Israel lies in the hardline minority parties that shore up the coalitions. The fact that the major party at the moment has a hawkish stance just makes it worse.

Just by looking at the media reports tht Steve Foster and Greeno have put on here shows that in Israel there is always only one opinion and that's why it is not believebale to us. For we know there are always two sides... and Greeno as a university student, I would have expected you to know that no one is ever 100% right. Yet the articles you print show abosultely no fault ont he Israeli part. That in itself makes it suspicious. I would feel more comfortable if you could produce a newspaper report from Israel that admitted SOME mistakes were made... after all Turkey has admitted there were hardliners aboard (albeit 4) who may have had hidden guns.

However, back to my point... in a society where the only press is like this it is no wonder that the Hawks can control and it is also no wonder that both the Israel and the outside world have trouble understanding each other.

 

[Rowdey]

There you go Bluenose, they never miss a chance to try to stick NAZI on anyone that refuses to be bullied into agreeing with them.

Just as an observer in this, here is an extract from the Guardian link above:

Last week, the Israel Defence Force had to issue a retraction over an audio clip it had claimed was a conversation between Israeli naval officials and people on the Mavi Marmara, in which an activist told soldiers to "go back to Auschwitz". The clip was carried by Israeli and international press, but today the army released a "clarification/correction", explaining that it had edited the footage and that it was not clear who had made the comment

 

[dazzalewis1968]

Israel kills Palestinian militants - Yahoo! News UK

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Israel kills Palestinian militants - Yahoo! News UK

I have no problem with that..... if they're carrying guns and are really militants. We all have a right to defend our shores...doesn't make last week right though.

 

[dazzalewis1968]

I have no problem with that..... if they're carrying guns and are really militants. We all have a right to defend our shores...doesn't make last week right though.

I agree last week was a mistake in my book !
but living life on the edge with militants on your front door is far from a chillaxed life style.

THE days and night 20 years ago i spent in Gazza were very tense finger on the trigger never knowing what was around the next corner.
someone on here said when i posted that a shin bet agent told me they foil attacks most days this was just good party talk.

 

[User removed 4]

but living life on the edge with militants on your front door is far from a chillaxed life style.

Then negotiate a withdrawal to pre 1967 borders , allowing a viable palestinian state, with a properly functional (as opposed to the dutch one that allowed the srebrenica massacre)UN peacekeeping force until the fledgling palestinian state is bedded in.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

I agree last week was a mistake in my book !
but living life on the edge with militants on your front door is far from a chillaxed life style.

THE days and night 20 years ago i spent in Gazza were very tense finger on the trigger never knowing what was around the next corner.
someone on here said when i posted that a shin bet agent told me they foil attacks most days this was just good party talk.

Oh I know.......................... on two of three of my trips to beirut I've felt it been under attack. I was there when the Isarelis bombed the bridge and just afte the president was killed by 'someone' (read Hezbollah)....on the third trip I had a hezbollah sympathiser taxi driver taking to my hotel at 4am in the morning.... was I bricking it!!

Have to say visiting Israel was much calmer but you are aware of the war footing everywhere you go there.

The phrase 'just chill!' might be red rag to a bull to just about ANYONE in that region.

 

[dazzalewis1968]

Oh I know.......................... on two of three of my trips to beirut I've felt it been under attack. I was there when the Isarelis bombed the bridge and just afte the president was killed by 'someone' (read Hezbollah)....on the third trip I had a hezbollah sympathiser taxi driver taking to my hotel at 4am in the morning.... was I bricking it!!

Have to say visiting Israel was much calmer but you are aware of the war footing everywhere you go there.

The phrase 'just chill!' might be red rag to a bull to just about ANYONE in that region.

In israel its a lot more chilled ........i only felt on edge on patrol in gazza west
BANK and more so in south Lebanon were i spent 6 months.

 

[dazzalewis1968]

Then negotiate a withdrawal to pre 1967 borders , allowing a viable palestinian state, with a properly functional (as opposed to the dutch one that allowed the srebrenica massacre)UN peacekeeping force until the fledgling palestinian state is bedded in.

Bushy Israel have withdrawn to 1967 borders in ref to gazza.
Hard to neg a treaty with hamas who's charter states that Ala says KILL JEWS.

 

[Dandyman]

Then negotiate a withdrawal to pre 1967 borders , allowing a viable palestinian state, with a properly functional (as opposed to the dutch one that allowed the srebrenica massacre)UN
peacekeeping force until the fledgling palestinian state is bedded in.

Is the right answer.


In the longer term an EU-like agreement between Israel, Palestine, Jordan and whoever else wants to join in would go a long way to securing a lasting peace as well IMO.

 

[Hotchilidog]

Then negotiate a withdrawal to pre 1967 borders , allowing a viable palestinian state, with a properly functional (as opposed to the dutch one that allowed the srebrenica massacre)UN peacekeeping force until the fledgling palestinian state is bedded in.

Nail on head. This is the only two state solution that is likely to work and have international support.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Bushy Israel have withdrawn to 1967 borders in ref to gazza.
Hard to neg a treaty with hamas who's charter states that Ala says KILL JEWS.

Let's not mention the West Bank then