Panama Papers

[highflyer]

Have you never paid a friend/acquaintance in cash for a bit of work?

No.

Not sure what the connection is, but since we are playing this game...

Have you ever siphoned millions of illicitly obtained dollars through an anonymous company in order to hide it from the tax authorities in a developing country or to line your pockets by dodging internationally agreed sanctions against brutal dictatorships? Because that is what is being discussed on this thread. A bit different from paying the builder £50 in cash maybe?

 

[beorhthelm]

So you can't be arsed to be annoyed by people taking advantage of you and your hard work and taxes that you pay?

would that be the tax dodgers or dodgy benefits claimants? its possible to be bothered by both. personally the latter bother me more because they are unproductive, while the former group have usually earnt the money (by hook or crook) and the money is used productively.

 

[highflyer]

the money is used productively.

You sure about that?

 

[pb21]

would that be the tax dodgers or dodgy benefits claimants? its possible to be bothered by both. personally the latter bother me more because they are unproductive, while the former group have usually earnt the money (by hook or crook) and the money is used productively.

How do you define 'used productively'?

 

[beorhthelm]

How do you define 'used productively'?

invested and spent, creating value back in to the wider economy. if some one is avoiding millions in tax it means they are generating millions in gross product, and the chances are their untaxed cash will be reinvested or spent on higher value (and more productive) products and services.

 

[Half Time Pies]

You sure about that?

Exactly, all this is linked in with the black economy and hiding the proceeds of crime Its not just about wealthy individuals not paying tax.

 

[pb21]

invested and spent, creating value back in to the wider economy. if some one is avoiding millions in tax it means they are generating millions in gross product, and the chances are their untaxed cash will be reinvested or spent on higher value (and more productive) products and services.

It seems like, reading that, rich people avoiding paying tax doesn't bother you?

Would the money not create more value back in to the wider economy, if it was taxed and then invested in say infrastructure projects, rather than property or yachts? Maybe we wouldn't need to relay on Chinese finance?

 

[highflyer]

invested and spent, creating value back in to the wider economy. if some one is avoiding millions in tax it means they are generating millions in gross product, and the chances are their untaxed cash will be reinvested or spent on higher value (and more productive) products and services.

Ok mate

 

[beorhthelm]

Exactly, all this is linked in with the black economy and hiding the proceeds of crime Its not just about wealthy individuals not paying tax.

true, the story covers a range of different issues that aren't really able to pigeon hole into one neat box of righteous indignation. some people might use off shore accounts merely to keep their finance private (while paying taxes), some might do so because they are abroad, some times it could be to sidestep the local dictatorship. off shore does not immediate evil as a default.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

There seems to be a lot of muddled posts about tax avoidance - perfectly legal, tax havens - been going on since taxes were imposed, and tax evasion - criminal offence.

It's not just the rich who evade taxes. Think of the tradesmen who ask for cash to avoid VAT etc.
Successive governments for decades have failed to tighten up loopholes or provide the money for the Justice system to investigate fraud. There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[Hampster Gull]

He would have a job to be fair, he died in 2012.

Slacker

 

[beorhthelm]

It seems like, reading that, rich people avoiding paying tax doesn't bother you?

it may seem like that if you cant read or ignore the previous post, where i qualify how it bothers me. id like everyone to pay all the tax owed but thats not the case, but bothers me less than people take for nothing and do nothing, for the reason given. you think there's no economic advantage to yachts? you want the entire economy controlled via government spending? probably not. it would be great if all government spending went on infrastructure and investment, unfortunately the vast majority of spending is on unfunded promises of previous generation and does not contribute positively to growth and productivity (which is not to say its not needed, just what its affect on productivity is)

 

[highflyer]

There seems to be a lot of muddled posts about tax avoidance - perfectly legal, tax havens - been going on since taxes were imposed, and tax evasion - criminal offence.

It's not just the rich who evade taxes. Think of the tradesmen who ask for cash to avoid VAT etc.
Successive governments for decades have failed to tighten up loopholes or provide the money for the Justice system to investigate fraud. There is nothing new under the sun.

'Muddled' is conflating 'cash in hand' payments with global criminality, sanctions busting, and defrauding poor countries out of billions of dollars. All carried out by people who have the power and influence to ensure that the rules, nationally and internationally, continue to be rigged in their favour.

If yiou think these are basically the same thing then we live in different worlds.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

'Muddled' is conflating 'cash in hand' payments with global criminality, sanctions busting, and defrauding poor countries out of billions of dollars. All carried out by people who have the power and influence to ensure that the rules, nationally and internationally, continue to be rigged in their favour.

If yiou think these are basically the same thing then we live in different worlds.

There was nothing in my post that said it was the same thing.

 

[Buzzer]

This is massive news. People mocked the 'illuminati' theory but it's not looking so silly anymore. Big respect to those with the balls to leak this (unless it was the FBI/CIA).

Really? Big corporations and rich people use tax havens...it's not exactly groundbreaking news, is it?

 

[highflyer]

There is very little economic advantage to money spent on yachts.

Governments spend the majority of their budget on education, health, pensions and transport (which boosts the economy more effectively than equivalent private sector expenditure btw - or did you not know that?)

I prefer that kind of spend to yachts, supercars and empty second homes. But maybe just a personal opinion.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Now that this information has been put into the public domain it is a game-changer because for the first time we can see the audit trail for how the money has been transferred and how the tax has been avoided, the amounts involved and the individual themselves.

It's a sick joke when the UK is one of the richest countries in the world yet can't run an economy without a deficit and can't achieve basic healthcare, education and defence standards. Now we know why.

This is exactly why we should be in the EU - to have a collective clampdown in tax havens and to use our combined clout to try and get the rest of the world to change its ways. It is a disgrace that half of the world's tax havens are part of the UK Commonwealth.

I believe that, like FIFA, it is possible to expose the corruption and then reform for the collective good but in order to do that there needs to be some form of amnesty. Much of the offshore money will have been obtained through illegal means and if the G8 get sidetracked with the past everyone will get drawn in and it will become a complete mess with financial markets suffering.

What we need is some sort of Nuclear Non-Proliferation treaty for tax havens with a deadline for a global shutdown of those that exist. You wonder what the effect might be for the City of London with much of this capital potentially coming back onshore?

 

[pb21]

it may seem like that if you cant read or ignore the previous post, where i qualify how it bothers me. id like everyone to pay all the tax owed but thats not the case, but bothers me less than people take for nothing and do nothing, for the reason given. you think there's no economic advantage to yachts? you want the entire economy controlled via government spending? probably not. it would be great if all government spending went on infrastructure and investment, unfortunately the vast majority of spending is on unfunded promises of previous generation and does not contribute positively to growth and productivity (which is not to say its not needed, just what its affect on productivity is)

I said it seems like that's how it read, and it does, no need to get so angry, but fair enough it does bother you.

I also said:

"Would the money not create more value back in to the wider economy, if it was taxed and then invested in say infrastructure projects, rather than property or yachts?"

I dint say that there isn't any economic advantage to yachts? Maybe you can't read or understand or ignore my posts!

So how about this one. Instead of the untaxed money being taxed and spent on infrastructure projects instead of getting the Chinese to pay for them, why not the taxed money being used to subsidise the amount of tax you and I pay every second? Would that not create more value back in to the wider economy?

 

[GingerBeerMan]

it may seem like that if you cant read or ignore the previous post, where i qualify how it bothers me. id like everyone to pay all the tax owed but thats not the case, but bothers me less than people take for nothing and do nothing, for the reason given. you think there's no economic advantage to yachts? you want the entire economy controlled via government spending? probably not. it would be great if all government spending went on infrastructure and investment, unfortunately the vast majority of spending is on unfunded promises of previous generation and does not contribute positively to growth and productivity (which is not to say its not needed, just what its affect on productivity is)

I think you have this the wrong way around. If a poor person falsely claims £100, that £100 will be spent in the local economy which necessarily creates jobs. If a rich person avoids £20m in taxes, this is likely to be invested in shares, bonds, oil, etc. to generate more income. The first produces jobs, the latter takes money out of the economy.

 

[Steve in Japan]

The reaction here is probably representative of the population as a whole. Some are indignant but some seem to be in the "so what" camp.

Apathy is never a good thing. Somebody is drawing a picture of how the super-rich cheat the taxman. Most of us have no chance of exploiting the same loopholes. We don't earn enough and we're on PAYE. Saying "so what " seems a bit strange to me. Are we really that brainwashed?