[Albion] Offside?

[GT49er]

Nonsense.

All that would happen would be fans claiming VAR is worthless, because 'that offside decision that went against us was a clear and obvious error, can't see why it wasn't overruled. That offside decision that was overruled costing us? Well, that was never clear and obvious. We need to bin VAR if they're just going to use it to screw over clubs like Brighton to protect the big six/the home side/the ref'

There will always be people complaining about VAR. Get rid of it, people will be split between complaining about the ref (like they did before VAR) and complaining about the lack of VAR.

Everyone thinks they have the perfect answer to make VAR work, but their answer won't work for everyone. There are too many opinions on how it should be used, when it should be used, who should do what part of the process, etc.

Nonsense yourself! Offside decisions have always been marginal - the problem has been Sky Sports and MOTD using slow motion to question every marginal decision, and generally trying to prove every refereeing decision was wrong. They are the guilty parties in getting VAR introduced in the first place. None of us (except you, it seems) are interested in a millimetre of armpit or toe nail being offside.

All of us - outside of PGMOL, Stockley Park and you - DO have the perfect answer. Unless it's blatantly obvious (without drawing lines and taking four minutes and god knows how many slow-mos) go with the on-field referee's decision.

Take Dunk's goal. OK, I know that VAR went against us, which is why I remember it, but there are countless other examples. Nobody watching thought it was offside, Everton didn't appeal it, and whether he was an inch on or offside wouldn't have made any difference anyway! Stockley Park, however, had to make themselves look important, and it was one of the clearest and most blatant cases yet of "Let's see if we can find a way to disallow a perfectly good goal".

 

[kevo]

Nonsense yourself! Offside decisions have always been marginal - the problem has been Sky Sports and MOTD using slow motion to question every marginal decision, and generally trying to prove every refereeing decision was wrong. They are the guilty parties in getting VAR introduced in the first place. None of us (except you, it seems) are interested in a millimetre of armpit or toe nail being offside.

All of us - outside of PGMOL, Stockley Park and you - DO have the perfect answer. Unless it's blatantly obvious (without drawing lines and taking four minutes and god knows how many slow-mos) go with the on-field referee's decision.

Take Dunk's goal. OK, I know that VAR went against us, which is why I remember it, but there are countless other examples. Nobody watching thought it was offside, Everton didn't appeal it, and whether he was an inch on or offside wouldn't have made any difference anyway! Stockley Park, however, had to make themselves look important, and it was one of the clearest and most blatant cases yet of "Let's see if we can find a way to disallow a perfectly good goal".

Is the correct answer.

 

[trueblue]

That would make sense except for the fact that it’s clear from the image we are shown that the vertical line is in front of his shoulder.

None of it looks that clear to me. Again, could just be the change in perspective - who knows.

 

[Hotchilidog]

Nonsense yourself! Offside decisions have always been marginal - the problem has been Sky Sports and MOTD using slow motion to question every marginal decision, and generally trying to prove every refereeing decision was wrong. They are the guilty parties in getting VAR introduced in the first place. None of us (except you, it seems) are interested in a millimetre of armpit or toe nail being offside.

All of us - outside of PGMOL, Stockley Park and you - DO have the perfect answer. Unless it's blatantly obvious (without drawing lines and taking four minutes and god knows how many slow-mos) go with the on-field referee's decision.

Take Dunk's goal. OK, I know that VAR went against us, which is why I remember it, but there are countless other examples. Nobody watching thought it was offside, Everton didn't appeal it, and whether he was an inch on or offside wouldn't have made any difference anyway! Stockley Park, however, had to make themselves look important, and it was one of the clearest and most blatant cases yet of "Let's see if we can find a way to disallow a perfectly good goal".

This is the key point with VAR, it's looking for the smallest reason to disallow a goal. Despite the technology subjectivity and human error are still rife. Currently VAR in the EPL is not fit for purpose.

I'd fire PGMOL and get new people to run it independently of the referees on the pitch or I'd just chuck the whole thing in the bin.

 

[Commander]

I wonder whether a 30 second rule would help? The second the goal goes in the VAR has 30 seconds to decide whether to disallow it. If he gets to 30 seconds and hasn't made a decision then the on field decision stands. No delay would ever be longer than 30 seconds, the ratio of correct decisions would improve from having no VAR. It wouldn't get it to 100% correct, but it isn't 100% correct at the moment. The game wold flow properly again and we'd stop having offsides given for a fingernail.

 

[Hamilton]

I’ve look at this over and over and just can’t see how it is offside.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Edit: fwiw I am 1.74m tall and from my foot to my hip is 1m

I'm out at the moment, but having been measured at 6'2.5" the other day (and I'm a damn sight taller than most people who claim to be 6'3") I''ll check my foot to hip when I'm in later.
What will this prove? Absolutely f*** all.

Just to update on this, I'm also about 1m from foot to hip.
Given how difficult I find getting into cars, I think I have an unusually long body.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The people running it are ruining it, through protecting the ref , we know that happens, Mike Dean admitted to it, to bias, conscious or unconscious from what's happened before and mainly from them being really poor at reading the game caused by inexperience of playing it to a reasonable level.

Create an independent body of ex players that formulate the laws of the game . Get them trained in the laws of the game and make sure they are completely independent of the officials on the pitch so there is no old pals act.

Ah yes, Mike Dean, who refused to correct an error by his 'mate' Anthony Taylor. He then realised what he'd said and complained too much was made of his comments.
Then, a few weeks later, Anthony Taylor is 'demoted' to the Championship.

Dean declined VAR call to save 'mate' from 'grief'

Ex-referee Mike Dean failed to use VAR in a Premier League match to save fellow official Anthony Taylor from extra "grief".

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Whilst I agree with your point re Havertz, the idea that a Newcastle ownership regime who are prepared to cut Journos into little pieces wouldn't use their sacks of gold for corrupt purposes isn't exactly tin foil hat territory. We've even seen Premier League refs go off to Qatar in midweek - presumably for a decent wedge and on 1st class flights - which at least subconsciously might encourage that borderline decisions to city back in the Premier league. At best, it's a bad look.

Refereeing scandals and bent games are as old as the.hills. Most major European leagues have had a refereeing scandal in recent years except the supposedly best league in the world. Given the power the guys in the VAR room have it is surely something that some of the owners in the premier League might have thought about. How else did the world cup end up in Russia, Qatar and Saudi?

Maybe I am being Naïve, however I can think of 2/3 awful calls Newcastle have had over the past year that would not have been given if refs were being bribed, the disallowed goal against Palace last year was worse than the decision on Sunday in my view.

Refs have always gone all over the place to ref, they are seen as the best around and leagues want them to do games for them.

I also think if there was the slightest hint of bribery the PL would be on it, look how the Italian league has been destroyed, the PL does not want the same to happen.

 

[maltaseagull]

Nonsense yourself! Offside decisions have always been marginal - the problem has been Sky Sports and MOTD using slow motion to question every marginal decision, and generally trying to prove every refereeing decision was wrong. They are the guilty parties in getting VAR introduced in the first place. None of us (except you, it seems) are interested in a millimetre of armpit or toe nail being offside.

All of us - outside of PGMOL, Stockley Park and you - DO have the perfect answer. Unless it's blatantly obvious (without drawing lines and taking four minutes and god knows how many slow-mos) go with the on-field referee's decision.

Take Dunk's goal. OK, I know that VAR went against us, which is why I remember it, but there are countless other examples. Nobody watching thought it was offside, Everton didn't appeal it, and whether he was an inch on or offside wouldn't have made any difference anyway! Stockley Park, however, had to make themselves look important, and it was one of the clearest and most blatant cases yet of "Let's see if we can find a way to disallow a perfectly good goal".

That often appears to be their main motivation.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Maybe I am being Naïve, however I can think of 2/3 awful calls Newcastle have had over the past year that would not have been given if refs were being bribed, the disallowed goal against Palace last year was worse than the decision on Sunday in my view.

Refs have always gone all over the place to ref, they are seen as the best around and leagues want them to do games for them.

I also think if there was the slightest hint of bribery the PL would be on it, look how the Italian league has been destroyed, the PL does not want the same to happen.

I don't think there's a suggestion of bribery

But we only found out refs were going to the middle east because of the Diaz decision. There's clearly a conflict of interest going on.

Middle East states own PL clubs. Middle East states employ refs for their league on probably large wages. Ref's are then expected to work here on a Saturday and are expected now to rule on decisions either for or against their employer (or prospective employer)

I personally don't see how anyone can be comfortable with this

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Ah yes, Mike Dean, who refused to correct an error by his 'mate' Anthony Taylor. He then realised what he'd said and complained too much was made of his comments.
Then, a few weeks later, Anthony Taylor is 'demoted' to the Championship.

Dean declined VAR call to save 'mate' from 'grief'

Ex-referee Mike Dean failed to use VAR in a Premier League match to save fellow official Anthony Taylor from extra "grief".

www.bbc.co.uk

And who also celebrated the Dunk goal being disallowed on the TV on Saturday afternoon

 

[Hamilton]

And who also celebrated the Dunk goal being disallowed on the TV on Saturday afternoon

Mike Dean celebrations

 

[trueblue]

I wonder whether a 30 second rule would help? The second the goal goes in the VAR has 30 seconds to decide whether to disallow it. If he gets to 30 seconds and hasn't made a decision then the on field decision stands. No delay would ever be longer than 30 seconds, the ratio of correct decisions would improve from having no VAR. It wouldn't get it to 100% correct, but it isn't 100% correct at the moment. The game wold flow properly again and we'd stop having offsides given for a fingernail.

I used to think this but they don't seem to be able to cope with the pressure as it is. It would seem the most sensible way though to restrict interventions to the very clearest decisions. I suspect what would happen though is that someone with the luxury of more time would then find an angle showing the one they'd used was misleading and we'd more or less be back to square one.

 

[Audax]

Few others have mentioned it already. Clear and obvious error in this VAR decision in that they've taken the wrong frame. The frame they've used, the ball has clearly already left the boot well before then (as can be seen by the amount of motion blur). Would love to see the frame before that one...

 

[Acker79]

Nonsense yourself! Offside decisions have always been marginal - the problem has been Sky Sports and MOTD using slow motion to question every marginal decision, and generally trying to prove every refereeing decision was wrong. They are the guilty parties in getting VAR introduced in the first place. None of us (except you, it seems) are interested in a millimetre of armpit or toe nail being offside.

All of us - outside of PGMOL, Stockley Park and you - DO have the perfect answer. Unless it's blatantly obvious (without drawing lines and taking four minutes and god knows how many slow-mos) go with the on-field referee's decision.

Take Dunk's goal. OK, I know that VAR went against us, which is why I remember it, but there are countless other examples. Nobody watching thought it was offside, Everton didn't appeal it, and whether he was an inch on or offside wouldn't have made any difference anyway! Stockley Park, however, had to make themselves look important, and it was one of the clearest and most blatant cases yet of "Let's see if we can find a way to disallow a perfectly good goal".

My 'nonsense' wasn't directed at your process, but at the idea that fans will be happy with it.

My position isn't that VAR works or is perfect as it is, or that your suggestion for VAR is bad. My position is that fans will never all be happy. That what is perfect for you won't be for other fans, who will still complain. Ask five people how VAR should be used and you will get five different processes, and each will version upset a different section of the football community.

Fans will always argue decisions that don't go their way are wrong, and if we just tweak VAR a bit more, it would make everyone happy.

It won't. Nothing will make everyone happy because there are so many varied ideas of what football is or should be, how referee should be done, how VAR should be implemented. Even if you get 'the majority' happy, the minority will be loud and be catered to by outrage driven media (both traditional and online).

 

[Acker79]

And who also celebrated the Dunk goal being disallowed on the TV on Saturday afternoon

He was celebrating his prediction/reading of the image being right. He was celebrating himself. Which is very in keeping with what we know about him.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I don't think anyone is expecting the refs on the pitch to be perfect. I'm sure we all know that they have a very difficult job, with the linesman.

However, VAR is really not that difficult, with the benefit of slow motion replays and different camera angles etc etc etc

They should be getting nearly all the decisions right. It should be a rarity when they get it wrong.

The reality is, it is very far from that. For example, yesterday Newcastle v Arsenal, Havertz should be sent off, Guimeres should be sent off and the goal should have been disallowed for a foul on Gabriel.

The people running it are ruining it, through protecting the ref , we know that happens, Mike Dean admitted to it, to bias, conscious or unconscious from what's happened before and mainly from them being really poor at reading the game caused by inexperience of playing it to a reasonable level.

Create an independent body of ex players that formulate the laws of the game . Get them trained in the laws of the game and make sure they are completely independent of the officials on the pitch so there is no old pals act.

I reckon it'll take about 10 years to get to this. Maybe much quicker if Man City, Spurs, Newcastle all suffer a bad one, then the influential clubs get together and pressure it to happen sooner.

The meltdown over the calls this season suggests perfection is wanted, again I am not defending the poor calls, but I understand they are part of the game.

Using the example of Sunday you mention and NSC - Harvertz has its own thread, its a mixed response or it being a red or not, it is a subjective call, the refs have sided with no, I believe it was a red, but others do not, if the ref had sent him off it would have been wrong to that group of people, a no win situation for the ref.

Bruno, again I think it was a red, others don't - same thing applies

The goal should have been disallowed, but the 4 things it could have been disallowed for:

1. Ball crossing the line, no proof it did - on field call stands
2. Off side - no proof he was - on field call stands
3. Handball - rule changed this year (maybe last) - subjective on field call not deliberate, nothing suggest it was - on field call stands
4. The push - ref did the correct thing and played on, VAR decided it was not a push (I disagree) there is doubt if the player is already falling, not overruled and goal given


So the fallout over the goal really comes down to one decision for the goal

All could have been avoided if Raya had caught the ball, which Arteta knows and its why he is deflecting.

The Ex players one is often used, they barely know the laws of the game as it is, just because they know the game does not mean the decisions would be correct, just subjective to the players POV.

I agree, the clubs need to get together for it to change, but they should start by respecting officials on and off the pitch so we are not driving them away.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I don't think there's a suggestion of bribery

But we only found out refs were going to the middle east because of the Diaz decision. There's clearly a conflict of interest going on.

Middle East states own PL clubs. Middle East states employ refs for their league on probably large wages. Ref's are then expected to work here on a Saturday and are expected now to rule on decisions either for or against their employer (or prospective employer)

I personally don't see how anyone can be comfortable with this

It was public knowledge, it has been going on for a while.

 

[Beanstalk]

It was offside. They got there in the end. A huge shame because it was a great goal.

I cannot fathom how or why it took over 2 minutes to get to a decision. It's the clubs' fault of course. Would've been clear as day if they'd bothered, like all other European leagues, to put semi-automated offsides in place for this season. Utterly bizarre to vote against something that at the very least, gives clarity to everyone on a tight decision.