[News] Nigel Farage and Reform

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Labour has had the opportunity to face up to Farage and Reform, but they continue to fail to bring the reversal of Brexit.

They had a massive majority at the last election. It's time to use some of that political capital to change Britain's fortunes for the better.

Admit the country made a mistake. Turn around. Reverse the direction now. Short-term embarrassment is nothing to long-term national economic pain.

And it's one thing moving from being unelectable to pick up confirmed centrist voters like me. It's another thing selling out your principles.

Amesbury should've resigned immediately - any moral high ground was lost with the trial, sentencing and prison. How many votes went in that time?

The freebies that Starmer, Reeves et al have received moves them further away from working class support. Need some new glasses? Should've gone to Specsavers. Want to go? Buy a ticket like everyone else. Simply have to go in hospitality because of security issues? Pay for that then.

And then there's the nauseating lickspittle fawning over Trump and the 'special relationship'. There's no point in claiming the soft power of royalty if there's no actual power to wield there. Public honours can and have been rescinded, e.g. Blunt (spying), Saville/Hall/Harris (child sex offences), Goodwin (near-collapse of RBS). Leaders of countries (Mussolini, Ceaucescu, Mugabe) had their honorary knighthoods stripped. For any number of reasons that threaten democracy, economic stability and the security of the Western world, a second state visit should be withdrawn.

We will soon see how standing up to Trump (over something really important) pans out:
Zilensky stood up to Trump a few weeks ago and was thrown out.
He has now come back cap in hand, ready to gift the US a mass of the nation's resources,
and perhaps also concede Crimea..... for peace.

There may come a point when the UK decides to split from the US.
Denying Trump a state visit would tickle the anti-Trump tummies in the UK.
The Guardian would be delighted.
But it will have negative impact on the UK if Trump recognizes it as a rebuke; Trump will punish the UK.
If Trump does not see it as a rebuke it would be a pointless gesture.
I can put people on NSC on ignore if they get on my tits.
Most of them probably don't even know I have, or care, and it doesn't matter.
Sticking two fingers up to Trump is a very different enterprise.

 

[hart's shirt]

I am a massive remainer, but I think it is far too soon to enact a rejoin process.
The main reason for this is that it is not unequivocally clear in the minds of voters that all the UK's ails are due to Brexit.
This leaves Labour open to being accused of betraying the will of the people by seeking to rejoin.
And the process itself would take a few years. Let's be incredibly optimistic and say 2 years.
After that, do you really think everything would suddenly improve?
Would the things that are driving folk to Reform suddenly vanish?
Would the NHS 'crisis' end?
Would the boats 'stop'?
(Would brown people vanish?)
I suspect the impact would be small, so Labour (the party of the Great Betrayal) would be finished.
For the record, I am a Labour party member, and think we must rejoin the EU, and the sooner the better.

H, we're on the same page, but not the same timeframe here.
There's never going to be unequivocable support for this or indeed for anything. You can't please all the people all the time.
"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." - Victor Hugo

True, it wouldn't solve everything else. No single measure ever could.
But just because one action can't solve everything doesn't mean that action is not worth taking.
And there's enough clear evidence to show that Britain is suffering unnecessarily with negative impacts on GDP, trade, freedom of movement, etc.

Why continue the self-sabotage?
Unless the motives are purely driven by electoral self-preservation. And that I'd find much, much worse.
Country before party.

 

[bazbha]

I have to congratulate all who have excelled themselves this morning. The response to last night has been exceptional. Its like a greatest hits of cliches which I've thoroughly enjoyed.
1. Its like the start of Nazi Germany in the 30's
2. Its because of the "right wing media" (apart from the Daily Mail & Express which hardly anyone reads theses days I'm not sure who that is)
3. Those Reform voters are thick / brainwashed (or any of several sneering insults that suggest inferior intellect to those on the left)
4. Brexit is the cause of everything negative to the economy (while totally ignoring the COVID lockdown & the Ukraine war & the state of other European economies)
5. Liberal use of the word racist
Maybe just maybe the fact that Labour have proved to be even worse than the last shower might have something to do with why people have voted Reform? Throwing insults at everyone you disagree with isn't a good look. Try debating without the condescending attitude perhaps?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Never mind the labour party H, I think that Half a trillion pounds taken out of the economy in the 5 years since we left is enough. It needs to be done now for the sake of the country.

Perhaps I don't pay enough attention but I am not aware of any proof of any major harm to the UK from Brexit.
And any 'harm' has been offset by getting back control.
And going back in would just make things worse.
And it would be a betrayal of the will of the people.

These are issues that are real in the minds of a significant proportion of voters.
Voters who backed Reform yesterday.
I have not managed to persuade a single person who holds these views to reconsider.

You may think it is all very simple and Labour could change everything with the click of their fingers,
but presumably are not doing so because they are scared/thick/mad?

No, if it were all so simple and rejoining were the panacea there would be a clamour for it.
Perhaps there is a clamour in some parties (Liberals?)
Unfortunately these are parties with no traction.
Traction is with the populist right at the moment.
Labour need to tread carefully or we will have something more right wing in change in 4 years.

If you are certain that rejoining should be priority, which party do you imagine could deliver this?
(I am an 'art of the possible' man not an ideologue).

 

[Taybha]

If I had to choose a party in a general election right now I'd probably vote Reform.
I'm definitely not racist as I know Welsh people and even a Scottish bloke called Justin.
I'm so angry at Labour for the way they've stuck the knife into the very people that they said they'd help and protect.
I doubt very much Reform would be much better than the long line of lying cheating twats that have been in power before them but right now I'm of the view I'd never again vote for Labour and obviously Tory again.
Well done Labour you are currently the VAR of politics.

 

[Si Gull]

We will soon see how standing up to Trump (over something really important) pans out:
Zilensky stood up to Trump a few weeks ago and was thrown out.
He has now come back cap in hand, ready to gift the US a mass of the nation's resources,
and perhaps also concede Crimea..... for peace.

There may come a point when the UK decides to split from the US.
Denying Trump a state visit would tickle the anti-Trump tummies in the UK.
The Guardian would be delighted.
But it will have negative impact on the UK if Trump recognizes it as a rebuke; Trump will punish the UK.
If Trump does not see it as a rebuke it would be a pointless gesture.
I can put people on NSC on ignore if they get on my tits.
Most of them probably don't even know I have, or care, and it doesn't matter.
Sticking two fingers up to Trump is a very different enterprise.

Sadly, like it or not, this is the truth. The US is too powerful to piss off without consequences. With some bullies you have to play a long, clever game. I feel that's where we are with Trump.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

H, we're on the same page, but not the same timeframe here.
There's never going to be unequivocable support for this or indeed for anything. You can't please all the people all the time.
"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." - Victor Hugo

True, it wouldn't solve everything else. No single measure ever could.
But just because one action can't solve everything doesn't mean that action is not worth taking.
And there's enough clear evidence to show that Britain is suffering unnecessarily with negative impacts on GDP, trade, freedom of movement, etc.

Why continue the self-sabotage?
Unless the motives are purely driven by electoral self-preservation. And that I'd find much, much worse.
Country before party.

If Labour announced a plan to rejoin I would back it.

Unfortunately they would never get the chance to achieve a rejoining because the nation would vote them out.
I make that assessment on the assumption that we could not get back in during Labour's first term.
making the next general election in effect another referendum.

My preference would be for Labour to make a 2029 manifesto commitment to seek to rejoin.
If they jump the gun during the present 5 years I fear they would fail, and ALL would then be lost.

But I could be persuaded I'm being overly cautious.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

We will soon see how standing up to Trump (over something really important) pans out:
Zilensky stood up to Trump a few weeks ago and was thrown out.
He has now come back cap in hand, ready to gift the US a mass of the nation's resources,
and perhaps also concede Crimea..... for peace.

There may come a point when the UK decides to split from the US.
Denying Trump a state visit would tickle the anti-Trump tummies in the UK.
The Guardian would be delighted.
But it will have negative impact on the UK if Trump recognizes it as a rebuke; Trump will punish the UK.
If Trump does not see it as a rebuke it would be a pointless gesture.
I can put people on NSC on ignore if they get on my tits.
Most of them probably don't even know I have, or care, and it doesn't matter.
Sticking two fingers up to Trump is a very different enterprise.

Don’t agree ref Zelensky. Ukraine were always going to sell their resources (it’s what countries do), just to who. Trump thought he could bully zelensky and it failed miserably as zelensky didn’t cave in. He went and had a chat with the Europe, Turkey and the Chinese which Trump really didn’t appreciate. If you look at what Trump has given on up regards his original deal, he’s billion down on what he said he wanted. He would have been better off doing an arms for resources in the first place as that’s all he’s got. If he reneges on the deal Ukraine shuts off the ’pump’.
I think losing out in the Canadian election forced his hand, as if the conservative had won he would have doubled down on ukraine and done a deal with the Canadians. They lost mainly down to him which up zelensky’s hand. The fact that Putin is screwed militarily wouldn’t have helped his argument. It shouldn’t be forgotten that at least 72 republicans want extra tariffs on Russia.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Perhaps I don't pay enough attention but I am not aware of any proof of any major harm to the UK from Brexit.
And any 'harm' has been offset by getting back control.
And going back in would just make things worse.
And it would be a betrayal of the will of the people.

These are issues that are real in the minds of a significant proportion of voters.
Voters who backed Reform yesterday.
I have not managed to persuade a single person who holds these views to reconsider.

You may think it is all very simple and Labour could change everything with the click of their fingers,
but presumably are not doing so because they are scared/thick/mad?

No, if it were all so simple and rejoining were the panacea there would be a clamour for it.
Perhaps there is a clamour in some parties (Liberals?)
Unfortunately these are parties with no traction.
Traction is with the populist right at the moment.
Labour need to tread carefully or we will have something more right wing in change in 4 years.

If you are certain that rejoining should be priority, which party do you imagine could deliver this?
(I am an 'art of the possible' man not an ideologue).

202 from 650 MPs across all parties supported Brexit (and no guesses where the huge majority of them were from). There has only ever been one party capable of getting a majority and doing this.

The vast majority of Labour MPs always have, and still do support joining the Customs Union. Why don't they do it ?

Simple fear of losing votes at the next election, a further £400 billion Brexit write off away. About time the country came first

 

[Guinness Boy]

I have to congratulate all who have excelled themselves this morning. The response to last night has been exceptional. Its like a greatest hits of cliches which I've thoroughly enjoyed.
1. Its like the start of Nazi Germany in the 30's
2. Its because of the "right wing media" (apart from the Daily Mail & Express which hardly anyone reads theses days I'm not sure who that is)
3. Those Reform voters are thick / brainwashed (or any of several sneering insults that suggest inferior intellect to those on the left)
4. Brexit is the cause of everything negative to the economy (while totally ignoring the COVID lockdown & the Ukraine war & the state of other European economies)
5. Liberal use of the word racist
Maybe just maybe the fact that Labour have proved to be even worse than the last shower might have something to do with why people have voted Reform? Throwing insults at everyone you disagree with isn't a good look. Try debating without the condescending attitude perhaps?

Indeed. Let's tackle some of the message. Here for example are some questions for you on Andrea Jenkins' winner's speech.

1) We're going to put British people first.

How would you define British people? And does she just mean British people in Lincolnshire where she has some (limited) power or the whole country?

2) Inch by inch Reform will reset Britain back to its glorious past

When exactly was that? 14 years of Tory rule that kicked off with austerity? The late 90s and early 00s under Blair? Thatcher destroying the northern working classes in the 80s? The Winter of Discontent and joining the EEC in the 70s? The swinging 60s under Labour and the Conservatives? Rationing in the 50s? War in the 30s and 40s? Or are we going all the way back to the Victorian era or before? And what was it, do you think, that made Britain great in the era you're supposing Jenkins is returning us to?

3) Tents are good enough for migrants

Where will these tents be pitched? Will children be expected to live in them, even in the depths or winter or a storm or flood? Who is paying for these tents and who is stopping the migrants just folding them up and moving on exactly?

4) Nigel has fought for decades

Why is it you think he's fought but not won?

5) We will deliver a once in a generation change

What would you describe as the success criteria for this, and by when should she achieve it?

And finally, did you snigger when she mentioned she called her son CLIFFORD?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Don’t agree ref Zelensky. Ukraine were always going to sell their resources (it’s what countries do), just to who. Trump thought he could bully zelensky and it failed miserably as zelensky didn’t cave in. He went and had a chat with the Europe, Turkey and the Chinese which Trump really didn’t appreciate. If you look at what Trump has given on up regards his original deal, he’s billion down on what he said he wanted. He would have been better off doing an arms for resources in the first place as that’s all he’s got. If he reneges on the deal Ukraine shuts off the ’pump’.
I think losing out in the Canadian election forced his hand, as if the conservative had won he would have doubled down on ukraine and done a deal with the Canadians. They lost mainly down to him which up zelensky’s hand. The fact that Putin is screwed militarily wouldn’t have helped his argument. It shouldn’t be forgotten that at least 72 republicans want extra tariffs on Russia.

I hope you're right.
Whatever happens everyone will claim it a victory.
From what I see of Putin, he has bought into Orwell's phenomenon of continuous war in someone else's territory as a focus of propaganda back home.
I can't see him agreeing to anything other than something grossly disfavourable to Ukraine.
And the fighting would soon begin again.
There was some talk of US being peacekeeper while they exploit Ukraine's resources.
Troops actually on the ground.
That would be interesting...but I don't see it myself. Time will tell.

 

[Hugo Rune]

She's going to be gone soon enough

Jenrick in next and a pact with reform in the next 18 months I'm guessing

The other option is that they get someone completely new in who is not intimately associated with the former Tory governments and go back to centre ground politics where Cameron had electoral success.

I've read and heard a lot about Badenoch being axed and I know it's what Tories do, but she is going to be very, very difficult to remove. She has astonishing self confidence and belief which seems to be born out of her stubborn, humourless, arrogant and aggressive personality. She doesn't seem to listen to people. I can't see her listening to anyone in her party now that she is No.1, especially if they are advising her to go. She is also a fighter. You'll need to drag her kicking and screaming out of Tory HQ and her position as leader. I think she might survive longer than people expect.

 

[WATFORD zero]

If I had to choose a party in a general election right now I'd probably vote Reform.
I'm definitely not racist as I know Welsh people and even a Scottish bloke called Justin.
I'm so angry at Labour for the way they've stuck the knife into the very people that they said they'd help and protect.
I doubt very much Reform would be much better than the long line of lying cheating twats that have been in power before them but right now I'm of the view I'd never again vote for Labour and obviously Tory again.
Well done Labour you are currently the VAR of politics.

So you've tried the Tories and Labour and didn't get what you wanted, so you're going to give Facism a try this time ?

What could possibly go wrong

 

[hart's shirt]

If Labour announced a plan to rejoin I would back it.

Unfortunately they would never get the chance to achieve a rejoining because the nation would vote them out.
I make that assessment on the assumption that we could not get back in during Labour's first term.
making the next general election in effect another referendum.

My preference would be for Labour to make a 2029 manifesto commitment to seek to rejoin.
If they jump the gun during the present 5 years I fear they would fail, and ALL would then be lost.

But I could be persuaded I'm being overly cautious.

If they don't announce a plan to rejoin, they're likely to lose centrist voters like me who expect them to choose decisions based on the country's economic status over those based on mere electoral self-preservation.

With less than a year in power, ignoring Brexit and pretending that it's not a problem is the equivalent of timewasting after 15 minutes.

We'd expect this from Aston Villa goalkeepers, but not from the Government.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

202 from 650 MPs across all parties supported Brexit (and no guesses where the huge majority of them were from). There has only ever been one party capable of getting a majority and doing this.

The vast majority of Labour MPs always have, and still do support joining the Customs Union. Why don't they do it ?

Simple fear of losing votes at the next election, a further £400 billion Brexit write off away. About time the country came first

If you think Labour should put the country first by forcing a move that would get them voted out.
(with the added consequence that the move would be quashed by the next government)
then you are of course correct.
But I sense there may be a flaw in your plan.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

If they don't announce a plan to rejoin, they're likely to lose centrist voters like me who expect them to choose decisions based on the country's economic status over those based on mere electoral self-preservation.

With less than a year in power, ignoring Brexit and pretending that it's not a problem is the equivalent of timewasting after 15 minutes.

We'd expect this from Aston Villa goalkeepers, but not from the Government.

I understand what you are saying.
I suppose I'm not booing because I expected it,
and couldn't really see any other option.
To continue the football analogy, when Labour trotted out for the first half,
they would have found that the goal (for rejoining) had literally been bricked up,
So in this particular match they have no choice other than to pass the ball back to their own keeper,
waiting to see if the FA (the electorate) might agree to a demolition of the wall,
so they might have a goal to shoot at.

 

[WATFORD zero]

If you think Labour should put the country first by forcing a move that would get them voted out.
(with the added consequence that the move would be quashed by the next government)
then you are of course correct.
But I sense there may be a flaw in your plan.

But I think there may be flaw in your plan of spending the next 4 years writing off 4% of GDP each and every year while desperately trying to grow the economy by 0.2% per year and keeping spending 'under control'

 

[Berty23]

I have to congratulate all who have excelled themselves this morning. The response to last night has been exceptional. Its like a greatest hits of cliches which I've thoroughly enjoyed.
1. Its like the start of Nazi Germany in the 30's
2. Its because of the "right wing media" (apart from the Daily Mail & Express which hardly anyone reads theses days I'm not sure who that is)
3. Those Reform voters are thick / brainwashed (or any of several sneering insults that suggest inferior intellect to those on the left)
4. Brexit is the cause of everything negative to the economy (while totally ignoring the COVID lockdown & the Ukraine war & the state of other European economies)
5. Liberal use of the word racist
Maybe just maybe the fact that Labour have proved to be even worse than the last shower might have something to do with why people have voted Reform? Throwing insults at everyone you disagree with isn't a good look. Try debating without the condescending attitude perhaps?

Could you debate any of the points people have made which you have listed and provide evidence they are wrong or are you using the Farage tactic of just saying “they are calling us all racist” which is not the case.

So how about you try debating.

What elements of the comparison to 1920s and 30s Germany do you disagree with?

The right wing media is not just those papers but the social media liars. Do you think they tell the truth?

Do you have evidence that reform voters are well informed? What policies are the people from massively predominately white Runcorn and Lincolnshire supporting from Reform? In fact, what are their policies? They don’t bother with realistic policies do they. They just say stuff like “we will save 50 billion on benefits” but not how. It is like the shambolic DOGE in America.

Why do you think our economy has been hit so much more by Covid and Ukraine than other countries? What Brexit benefit have we experienced? Seriously, how has it benefited you?

 

[WATFORD zero]

So in this particular match they have no choice other than to pass the ball back to their own keeper,
waiting to see if the FA (the electorate) might agree to a demolition of the wall,
so they might have a goal to shoot at.

They did over a year ago

Never mind the labour party H, I think that Half a trillion pounds taken out of the economy in the 5 years since we left is enough. It needs to be done now for the sake of the country. 65% v 35% of those with a view this time last year, and those figures are only going in one direction

Maybe we need a poll

 

[nicko31]

So you've tried the Tories and Labour and didn't get what you wanted, so you're going to give Facism a try this time ?

What could possibly go wrong

The Tories trashed the country aided by Farage contracting the economy by 5% and making people pay shit loads more tax.

Labour fail to clean up their mess in 9 months

Solution - Vote Trump fanboy and Putin appeaser Farage

Never underestimate the degree to which the UK population can be gaslit.