ManOfSussex
We wunt be druv
Coincidentally, our new Tory MP here stood for the Tories in your constituency unsuccessfully in '17 against Pidcock. She originally hails from that part of the world.
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[Politics] Next leader of the Labour party
- Thread starter Bulldog
- Start date
Coincidentally, our new Tory MP here stood for the Tories in your constituency unsuccessfully in '17 against Pidcock. She originally hails from that part of the world.
dingodan
New member
- Feb 16, 2011
- 10,080
It's really mindblowing to me to hear Labour supporters blame traditional labour votors for not voting for them. I heard someone say the other day that they need to change the minds of those voters. Instead of saying we need to look at, and maybe change, ourselves. Perhaps self reflection would be a good idea? Did traditional Labour voters leave the Labour Party? Or did the Labour Party leave them? A question worth asking IMO.
Do traditional Labour voters go in for the politics of envy and resentment? Maybe they just want competence and fairness. It was never really a class struggle between rich and poor in this country. It was a contest between fairness/reasonableness and dogmatic ideology. The right used to have a dogmatic ideology and the left used to be fair and reasonable. Now the right are fair and reasonable and the left have a dogmatic ideology. Fair and reasonable will always win in this country. It's the British way.
Hastings gull
Well-known member
- Nov 23, 2013
- 4,635
Perhaps the thousands who did throw their lot in, as you put it, actually wanted change in their communities, as they too might place society as a priority?
KZNSeagull
Well-known member
Yes, that's right. Our new Tory MP here comes from Lancashire.
KZNSeagull
Well-known member
That's correct. Certainly in places like Redcar they have tried everyone else and been let down.
You’re so right.
Even post election there’s so many failed candidates from Labour that just don’t get it.
Woman on Newsnight just came over as an angry fool who was blinkered to what traditional Labour supporters had told her. Jack Straw just sighed as she ranted.
This new type of Labour activist will ensure they will continue to be unelectable for a long time. Telling people you’re wrong is not going to win votes. Kinnock junior is just as bad.
portslade seagull
Well-known member
My hope is that the wrangling now goes on for years so that the rabble that calls itself Momentum eventually withers and dies and Labour returns to the ordinary people
Hastings gull
Well-known member
- Nov 23, 2013
- 4,635
Probably most of the country will share your view, but somehow I doubt it will happen. We have all seen quite depressing examples of these fanatics utterly incapable of looking at themselves, preferring to blame Brexit and indeed anything other than their own policies. They are fanatics, and aware that on their own they attract little mass support, so their only chance is to front a larger organisation, work their way into key positions and then pretend that they have mass support. It happened in the 80s, and again these last few years because it is so difficult to be rid of them.
I think, perhaps, as this is a football board, then a football analogy is appropriate.
The current Labour party is akin to a team with a ground bigger than Watford's but smaller than Old Trafford. They have a manager who plays the same tactics every week, no matter who they are taking on, and those tactics are good old fashioned 4-4-2. Every week the ground is full of adoring followers who love good old fashioned 4-4-2, but there is very little interest in them outside of that ground itself with virtually no overseas fans and TV channels falling over themselves to avoid their games.
And every week they lose. And when they lose the people in the ground do not blame the manager, nor the tactics. They blame the other side for cheating. They blame the TV companies for not coming and the rest of the country for ignoring them. And even when the manager eventually goes the people in the ground will demand good, old-fahsioned 4-4-2, even if it loses, despite there being people involved behind the scenes who could change the results for the better, if only they'd accept a bit of commercialism and a couple of flair players from Italy.
The current Labour party is akin to a team with a ground bigger than Watford's but smaller than Old Trafford. They have a manager who plays the same tactics every week, no matter who they are taking on, and those tactics are good old fashioned 4-4-2. Every week the ground is full of adoring followers who love good old fashioned 4-4-2, but there is very little interest in them outside of that ground itself with virtually no overseas fans and TV channels falling over themselves to avoid their games.
And every week they lose. And when they lose the people in the ground do not blame the manager, nor the tactics. They blame the other side for cheating. They blame the TV companies for not coming and the rest of the country for ignoring them. And even when the manager eventually goes the people in the ground will demand good, old-fahsioned 4-4-2, even if it loses, despite there being people involved behind the scenes who could change the results for the better, if only they'd accept a bit of commercialism and a couple of flair players from Italy.
- Jan 3, 2012
- 16,701
While I take your point overall, The notion that "the Right is now fair and reasonable" seems laughable after the events of the last few weeks. To describe Priti Patel in particular as fair and reasonable is just not on.
But to be fair, we have to wait and see what Boris does next. I don't think he will deliver 50,000 new nurses and 20,000 new policemen. But if he has a good crack at it, then fair enough. But if it comes to lying and massaging figures to show that he is trying, then he will be appropriately judged.
Given who has voted him in and how he has said he will repay them, I expect to see Universal Credit increased by at least 20%, announcements of major investment in some of the Northern areas which Thatcher devastated and which have now voted for him, a real attempt to solve the housing crisis and provide AFFORDABLE homes, rather than pandering to the wishes of Tory Donor developers to restrict and avoid that part of their developments.
I hope he does have a good bash at all that, but I don't think he will.
Kalimantan Gull
Well-known member
Well, first I'm not a Labour supporter. I voted Labour because in this fptp system they were the best vehicle for getting us close to what I want. But its becoming unclear that that is true. Ultimately to build a centre left coalition to get the society many of us want, we have joined the working classes, supported THEIR Labour Party, supported some of their socialist ideas in order to get some of what we want, but now they've deserted their OWN party in droves. The irony not lost on me, it never felt that the Labour Party had become a Liberal party, but is that what happened?. They obviously don't want what we want, you are undeniably right there, to the point they'd rather have a right wing version of the Tories. So where to now? Everything is so polarised elections cannot be won from the middle. If the left coalition we try and hold together falls apart, we end up with this. I have no answer right now.
You know, I always thought it was us liberal centrists who would hold our noses and vote for the socialist corbyn, whereas the working classes would lap up his promises. Turns out I couldn't have been more wrong. We stayed with him, despite everything, and they left.
Although, I have to keep reminding myself, 55% of people voted for a centre - left or left - wing party. We're not that far away.
GT49er
Well-known member
He's not likely to be able to state his opinion one way or the other, is he.
dingodan
New member
- Feb 16, 2011
- 10,080
Investment in the North I think is a massive need and it's the one thing I hope this government will do more than anything. But I can't get on board with the idea that repaying these voters faith simply means writing bigger welfare cheques.
I understand that to a large extent people have become dependant on money from the state, and to that extent they have to be looked out for, you can't simply pull the rug out from under them. But in the long run it's not the way to help people, not really. One good argument for giving people something like universal credit is because people pay a lot of tax. Ok, so stop taxing people so much, it's their money let them keep it in the first place, rather than stealing it from them and then giving a little back. That's the conservative position.
If you invest in the north, and crucially help people to develop the skills needed for a modern economy, then they can thrive and don't need so much help from the state. Depending on the state in order to get by is a drain on peoples self confidence sense of independence. Giving people the means to work hard, earn well, and keep what they earn is the real source of confidence and indepenence. With a healthy economy and a fairer distribution of opportunity people don't need the state so much, and in turn the state has to do more than just offer them handouts in order to win votes and get elected, which would also be an improvement.
Having people dependent on a welfare state is of far greater benefit to the state than it is to the people who receive it. It's a very poor subsitute for self reliance and prosperity. People talk a lot about fairness, but in a truley fair society you get out what you put in and everyone has an equal shot at succeeding for themselves and their families if they want to.
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Iggle Piggle
Well-known member
- Sep 3, 2010
- 5,434
Blair and Skinner bizarrely had a good relationship. Blair was known to remark that him and Skinner did not agree on a number of things but they both knew the difference between a Tory and Labour government
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...t-new-best-friend-dennis-skinner-1200798.html
midnight_rendezvous
Well-known member
Thatcher is quoted as saying her biggest achievement was New Labour.
dingodan
New member
- Feb 16, 2011
- 10,080
What is a "right wing" version of the tories? If I look at right wing politics and look at the Conservative party, I really don't see what makes them particularly right wing, even if they are technically to the right of center.
I think you misunderstood what Labour voters want. I think maybe (no disrespect) you bought into the politics of envy and resentment, and you thought the working classes did too. But they don't. Why? Because they are some of the hardest working people you will ever find. The politics of "divide and confiscate" doesn't appeal to them. They just want fairness.
I could be wrong, maybe you aren't into the whole "steal from the rich to give to the poor" thing, but that is where Labour have gone wrong in my opinion. Working class people don't want to steal from other hardworking and successful people, they just want a fair shot at success themselves, and changes in the economic landscape has robbed them of that over time, and they have never really got it back. I hope now they will.
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midnight_rendezvous
Well-known member
You say anti-Cornynisn as if the Labour policies were unpopular - they weren’t - and there not even that leftist, and can be found across the western world world. The only reason that they’re considered “extreme” is because we‘ve lurched so far to the right to accommodate the rise in nationalism and populism.
Neville's Breakfast
Well-known member
I wonder how many people of your view have lent their support to Labour in recent years. It may explain the current destruction of the party and answer the question being posed on this thread. Labour will now tilt towards those of your view or towards its traditional support. This leadership election is of crucial importance.
Neville's Breakfast
Well-known member
Today, 11:16 #235
Shropshire Seagull
Lord Such would be an upgrade - but would he want the gig?
Bit like Corbyn on Brexit then......boom boom.
Shropshire Seagull
Lord Such would be an upgrade - but would he want the gig?
Bit like Corbyn on Brexit then......boom boom.
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GT49er
Well-known member
Errmm .......... there is a considerable difference between 'unable' and 'unwilling'.