[Albion] NEW: Barber on Hughton, and our big signings.

[sussex_guy2k2]

What they don't do is automatically equate poor performance with the manager. Burnley's start of the season to January was shocking, just the other way round to our season, was Dyche at fault for that, or circumstances? If you've made your mind up that the manager needs to be changed, you may as well put glasses on that obscure every other opinion. I've seen people defend the performances of say Jahanbakhsh by saying 'it's not a system to suit him...' etc. It is possible to be balanced, that yes he maybe finding it hard in our system, but also share the opinion that he's simply finding the step up in quality and pace very difficult.

So there are cliches everywhere, what I did find interesting is how closely Barber works with Hughton, and how between them, Barber and Bloom have a huge swathe of information we are not privy too; personal circumstances of players, what is going on at the training ground, and the fine detail of running a football club.

We didn't make progress for 4 months of the season. It's hardly crime of the footballing century that a manager and their team has a poor spell at some point. I'd argue that other than Jan - April this year we have made progress every other 1/2 season under Hughton, 8 out of 9 if you like. I'm certainly inclined to give the benefit of doubt, which clearly others aren't.

Did you really just compare us to the Burnley team that got into Europe last year and tore us a new one at home? You’ve pretty much invalidated your whole argument right there.

Although we will agree on one thing. Like most, I’m not privy to most of the information the upper echelons of our club have. This means I have to base my opinion on what I see when I watch our team. And what I see is a group of players who have not progressed, who have been tactically found out across the season, who are lucky that there are three terrible, terrible teams below us in the league, and I’ve seen a manager that really struggles to tactically manage games.

All of the other bits are great to talk about, but if the business isn’t being done on the pitch, as it hasn’t been for months now, then you have to overlook all the other stuff and focus on how you are going to remedy these issues.

 

[colonies man]

There wasn’t any real content in his post. The point is that there are two ways to look at this. I’m a BHA fan, not a CH fan. That doesn’t mean I don’t think Chris has done a decent job up to a point. But it also doesn’t mean I don’t think there comes a point where there has to be actual improvements. And I’m sorry, but I don’t think there’s been enough improvement in the first team this season (arguably none at all), and that comes down to the manager.

You can look at this so called bigger picture all you want, but the product I’m paying for is the men’s first team. And from January onwards we’ve been awful, with our redemption only coming when we regress back to our Championship team. That isn’t progress. And maybe you and others are happy with a lack of progress, but I’m not.

So it begs the question which I’ve asked numerous times across a number of threads which no one seems to be able to answer. How far do we have to fall before the CH loyalists put their loyalty for the manager behind their loyalty for the club?

What we do agree on is that we have a great chairman and the club is a well run business asset generally. And what I will always do is support the club at games, unconditionally. But that doesn’t mean I’m happy with the product I’m being sold in this entertainment industry and it doesn’t mean I think CH has done anything to prove he can develop our club beyond what it is. Maybe you’re happy with what we are. Maybe TB is too. But I’d be seriously worried if people at the top of our club are happy after the latter 50% of this season.[/QUOTE
Brilliant post

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Although I've not said people can't complain without having a replacement in mind, it is a valid question to ask, since that's the position we're in. You have to think we'll get someone better if you're calling for him to go, and it appears the club (Mr Bloom & co) have decided there isn't anyone better, so what is it that the doubters know that the club doesn't?

Although you've exaggerated your quotes (no one has said 'against all odds', and I'm not sure anyone has said 'he's done so well' either), the positive replies have been in response to over-the-top criticism.

Too positive? How is this positivity damaging our club? Positivity is good - fans getting behind the team helps the team do well.

If Bloom and his advisors decide we can get a better manager, then that's what will happen, and we'll support whomever they bring in. But that's not happening - they've decided the best man for the job is Chris.

Maybe that’s the case. But if CH is the limit of our ambitions as a club and as a fan base, we may as well give up going to football now.

I’ve over exaggerated my quotes? Numerous people are delighted with this season citing the Palace victories, the FA cup semi after we stumbled past Championship sides, and the early season win against Man Utd. Whether that’s in response to over the top criticism or just their opinion is up for debate, no doubt, but what is the over the top criticism you’re talking about? At many other clubs, being the worst performing league club over a 4 month period would get you the sack. Not at Brighton though. Personally I’d be questioning the sanity of anyone who isn’t questioning CHs position.

As I’ve said before. I shan’t ever boo or criticise at games. I don’t see the point. But being overly optimistic after the second half of the season we have strikes of naivety at best and arrogance at worst. Quite frankly, if anyone at the top end of our club has any emotion better than being relieved after the second half of this season then I’m worried about where we’re heading. Because if progress isn’t made soon, then we face a realistic chance of going down next year.

However, that all said, if they keep him over the summer and he starts to show progress throughout next season, then that’s excellent as it means our club is making progress. And that’s the most important thing.

Re getting someone better, there’s absolutely no point in putting names forward. It depends on numerous things that would occur at an interview stage such as the new manager’s idea of a playing philosophy, his recruitment targets, his training regimes etc, none of which I’m privy to. So to ask for names really is a pointless task as we don’t have the information available to make such a decision.

 

[chaileyjem]

Did you really just compare us to the Burnley team that got into Europe last year and tore us a new one at home? You’ve pretty much invalidated your whole argument right there.

The argument is about making knee jerk decisions about your manager or the progress of a club in a limited time period.
Would you have sacked Dyche on the basis he had a shocking half of the season. ?

 

[Rugrat]

The argument is about making knee jerk decisions about your manager or the progress of a club in a limited time period.
Would you have sacked Dyche on the basis he had a shocking half of the season. ?

Is that the Dyche who has a 7 year track record with a team that has a wage bill even lower than ours and who qualified them for Europe?

 

[chaileyjem]

Numerous people are delighted with this season citing the Palace victories, the FA cup semi after we stumbled past Championship sides, and the early season win against Man Utd. Whether that’s in response to over the top criticism or just their opinion is up for debate, no doubt, but what is the over the top criticism you’re talking about? At many other clubs, being the worst performing league club over a 4 month period would get you the sack. Not at Brighton though. Personally I’d be questioning the sanity of anyone who isn’t questioning CHs position.
.

You can question our summer signings , be frustrated that we haven't more points than last season and still be bruised from witnessing a 0-5 home defeat v Bournemouth off all teams AND still accept that this season has had plenty of incredible moments, games and memories. And be pleased we're in the Prem for a third year and acknowledge the cup run.
But thanks for thinking that i'm insane, and its simply not true that clubs always sack managers who have bad runs of form - is it ? Sean Dyche would have been sacked years ago. We're lucky we're don't have a trigger happy chairman.

 

[Icy Gull]

I’m quite happy for the Hughton IN supporters to gloat. I’d much prefer it that way round tbh. I confess to being really concerned about where we were heading pre Wolves. My admiration for those that KNEW we’d avoid the drop.

I like CH and I’m pleased he’s pulled it around, doesn’t stop me questioning if he’s the man to take us to the next level or the fact that I thought him and the team had an appalling couple of months.

If there is no next level, that will be sad but I can live with it. I will have a moan about it though

Would now be the time to say I found the semi final really underwhelming, at no time in the build up or during the game did I think we had a chance. I am much more excited by today

 

[chaileyjem]

Is that the Dyche who has a 7 year track record with a team that has a wage bill even lower than ours and who qualified them for Europe?

Yes. He's an impressive manager, like Hughton but seems to still be in a job despite Burnley being relegated in their first season in the Prem (under him) and losing 13 out of the first 21 games this season.

 

[Rugrat]

Yes. He's an impressive manager, like Hughton but seems to still be in a job despite Burnley being relegated in their first season in the Prem (under him) and losing 13 out of the first 21 games this season.

There was no disgrace in relegation, as it wouldn't be for pretty well most clubs coming up (including ourselves). He then used his budget wisely and got them back up. They then survived with room to spare and the following season they kicked on and finished 7th. If that isn't a record of progress I don't know what is.

I'll let you have the last word

 

[chaileyjem]

There was no disgrace in relegation, as it wouldn't be for pretty well most clubs coming up (including ourselves). He then used his budget wisely and got them back up. They then survived with room to spare and the following season they kicked on and finished 7th. If that isn't a record of progress I don't know what is.

I'll let you have the last word

Yep. Not sure what your point is. I agree. Dyche is a brilliant manager with a similar budget to Albion. but he has had his fair share of blips . I'm sure fans have questioned him at various times but he didn't have a board who sacked him, before finding our how he can develop teams and take them forward.
Next year is Hughton's 5th full season as manager . In Dyches 5th full season he took them to the Europa League. So we'll see won't we.

 

[Icy Gull]

Yep. Not sure what your point is. I agree. Dyche is a brilliant manager with a similar budget to Albion. but he has had his fair share of blips . I'm sure fans have questioned him at various times but he didn't have a board who sacked him, before finding our how he can develop teams and take them forward.
Next year is Hughton's 5th full season as manager . In Dyches 5th full season he took them to the Europa League. So we'll see won't we.

Make it happen

I promise never to doubt again, if it does.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I’m quite happy for the Hughton IN supporters to gloat. I’d much prefer it that way round tbh. I confess to being really concerned about where we were heading pre Wolves. My admiration for those that KNEW we’d avoid the drop.

I like CH and I’m pleased he’s pulled it around, doesn’t stop me questioning if he’s the man to take us to the next level or the fact that I thought him and the team had an appalling couple of months.

If there is no next level, that will be sad but I can live with it. I will have a moan about it though

Would now be the time to say I found the semi final really underwhelming, at no time in the build up or during the game did I think we had a chance. I am much more excited by today

Because you have a balanced way of looking at things Icy, you don’t confine yourself to binary opinions and become intransigent in your thinking. Kind of what being a supporter is all about really.

 

[Stat Brother]

Because you have a balanced way of looking at things Icy, you don’t confine yourself to binary opinions and become intransigent in your thinking. Kind of what being a supporter is all about really.

Yeah me and Icy are a breed apart.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Yeah me and Icy are a breed apart.

You’re more Jean Luc Picard and a large swathe of NSC is your Borg.

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

Re getting someone better, there’s absolutely no point in putting names forward. It depends on numerous things that would occur at an interview stage such as the new manager’s idea of a playing philosophy, his recruitment targets, his training regimes etc, none of which I’m privy to. So to ask for names really is a pointless task as we don’t have the information available to make such a decision.

I think this is one of the most important points. If we have a playing identity, it's as a backs-to-the-wall, they-shall-not-pass defensive team. Jonathan Northcroft in today's Sunday Times described us as 'nuggety and gnarly'. Is Tony Bloom content with that? He must know that Chris Hughton believes it is the only way to survive with our budget. If he wants to make us more watchable, it will mean more than a new manager because our squad is based on CH's methods.

To some extent we are forced to play a certain way because Dunk and Duffy aren't very fast, so playing a high defensive line would make us vulnerable. Our forwards don't look fit enough to press other teams although we were told that they had had their hardest pre-season ever. Maybe going to three at the back and bringing in a faster central defender would be one way to change things, but signing Dan Burn didn't seem to indicate much in that way of thinking.

There are other ways. Bournemouth went from being a possession-based team in the Championship to a counter-attacking team in the Premier League because Eddie Howe identified their relative lack of pace as something that would get them punished at the higher level. They stayed with a back four and kept faith with Cook, Francis and Daniels (but not, sadly, Tommy Elphick) but brought in Josh King and relied on his and Callum Wilson's speed on the break. But you have to get the right players. We hoped Andone would be something of that sort but we haven't played to his strengths.

Maybe Dan Ashworth will provide some answers.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I'm glad Hughton turned it around and found the answers when it mattered.

The thing is though, continually having a bottom 3 budget and aiming to finish top of the 17th-20th league each season is not sustainable - but failure to do that means returning to the *multi-million-loss-every-year league*.

Which is a bit futile and depressing

 

[Icy Gull]

Because you have a balanced way of looking at things Icy, you don’t confine yourself to binary opinions and become intransigent in your thinking. Kind of what being a supporter is all about really.

I think the word you are looking for is fickle

 

[Mayonaise]

I'm glad Hughton turned it around and found the answers when it mattered.

The thing is though, continually having a bottom 3 budget and aiming to finish top of the 17th-20th league each season is not sustainable - but failure to do that means returning to the *multi-million-loss-every-year league*.

Which is a bit futile and depressing

This is about where we are.

I am hoping though that each year we survive allows our playing budget to grow year on year and give Chris the squad he needs in order for us to play attacking football as we did at the top of the championship.

 

[Triggaaar]

Maybe that’s the case. But if CH is the limit of our ambitions as a club and as a fan base, we may as well give up going to football now.

WTF? No one is saying that no matter how we do, we'll never be better than we are now. I imagine Tony's ambition is to become an established Premier League team to start with. At the moment, each year we survive helps the club financially, and gives us more worldwide exposure, which in time will help us attract better players, and possibly a better manager in the future. Thinking Chris is the right man for the job at the moment doesn't mean that the club never hopes we'll be better than we are now.

I’ve over exaggerated my quotes? Numerous people are delighted with this season citing the Palace victories, the FA cup semi after we stumbled past Championship sides, and the early season win against Man Utd.

Well obviously we're delighted with the Palace victories. We also beat Bournemouth in the cup. No amazing scalps, but still further than we've got for the last 35 years, so a decent effort. It would be weird if we weren't pleased with those points. But that's not the same as saying 'he kept us up against all odds'.

what is the over the top criticism you’re talking about?

Here are some quotes for you:
Here are just a few, from one page:
'Shame we can’t sack him at half time.'
'One word. Clueless.'
'Whatever happens in the remaining games, he just has to go. Anyone who backs him cannot care about this football club'
'It's not his fault as a person, he just has no idea on attacking strategy in the Premier League. '
'whether we win, lose or draw today, he needs to go in the Summer'
'He must go '
' Hughton and about 2/3rds of this team need to be canned. There are no words for how bad we are.'
'What is the point in keeping him on for the last two games? He has lost the ****ing plot. '

At many other clubs, being the worst performing league club over a 4 month period would get you the sack. Not at Brighton though.

Dyche got Burnley relegated, but he didn't get the sack. Instead they kept him on, won the Championship, and have now had 3 seasons in the PL (including finishing 7th or something). Had you been the Burnley chairman, you'd have sacked him, and your club would be no higher than the Championship.

As I’ve said before. I shan’t ever boo or criticise at games. I don’t see the point. But being overly optimistic after the second half of the season we have strikes of naivety at best and arrogance at worst.

What have I (or others) said that's overly optimistic?

 

[Machiavelli]

I think this is one of the most important points. If we have a playing identity, it's as a backs-to-the-wall, they-shall-not-pass defensive team. Jonathan Northcroft in today's Sunday Times described us as 'nuggety and gnarly'. Is Tony Bloom content with that? He must know that Chris Hughton believes it is the only way to survive with our budget. If he wants to make us more watchable, it will mean more than a new manager because our squad is based on CH's methods.

To some extent we are forced to play a certain way because Dunk and Duffy aren't very fast, so playing a high defensive line would make us vulnerable. Our forwards don't look fit enough to press other teams although we were told that they had had their hardest pre-season ever. Maybe going to three at the back and bringing in a faster central defender would be one way to change things, but signing Dan Burn didn't seem to indicate much in that way of thinking.

There are other ways. Bournemouth went from being a possession-based team in the Championship to a counter-attacking team in the Premier League because Eddie Howe identified their relative lack of pace as something that would get them punished at the higher level. They stayed with a back four and kept faith with Cook, Francis and Daniels (but not, sadly, Tommy Elphick) but brought in Josh King and relied on his and Callum Wilson's speed on the break. But you have to get the right players. We hoped Andone would be something of that sort but we haven't played to his strengths.

Maybe Dan Ashworth will provide some answers.

Good post. If there's one thing that we're sorely lacking, it's pace. Out wide (Bernardo, Izquierdo, March, even the much maligned Montoya) we're not too bad, elsewhere I'd imagine we're slower than every other team in the PL. Dunk and Duffy are our strength, but even they're not over-blessed in this department. We're also lacking in athleticism and physicality. We need to build slowly and carefully address these issues. This transfer window has to be about quality, not quantity. A striker, dynamic/holding CM, and RB are the key priorities. Next window/summer, out wide will need looking at in all probability.