Morally, should the Germans bail out Europe?

[Carrot Cruncher]

I remember the impact David Hassellhoof had on an united Germany all those years ago. Surely, with that power in mind the Germans should offer over another of their musical masterpieces to bring hope into the hearts of the povertous Greeks. Perhaps they could get another out of work but slightly less alcoholic Baywatch star like Billy Warlock whose tiny form must have spent a large amount of time clambering over Erika Eleniak's mountainous mounds to send over. He looked a bit Greek and would be desperate for work i am sure. Ok maybe people wouldn't recognise without a concentrated rerun of Baywatch series 1-3, but that would be manageable. He could get into shape, the Warlock, and do some voice-coaching and plan an amazing video of him on the beach, the beach of opportunity and freedom which will muster in Greeks the romantic nature of efficacious fiscality in a troublesome world. We Can Make It, it will be called, and there'll be a dream scene or two of Warlock marrying about 13 different women of equal shape and size (apart from a giant mulleted German "woman" as it's important to remember who gets things sorted), each representing a different European state.

That. Or the Scorpions.

 

[sten_super]

Sten,

I'm not ignoring anything, I'm aware of the economic arguments facing Merkel, but I'm also interested in the psychological aspects to all of this.

The Germans, buoyed by their reunification, drove the Single European currency and the ratification of the Maastricht Treaty.

They, and not us, are also the biggest European economic power because of WW2. Whilst money was pumped in from the West into Germany to halt the Communist advance Britain was struggling to repay war loans to the Yanks. We only finished repaying our WW2 debt at the end of 2006.

I'm surprised the Germans aren't getting more criticism for this Euro fiasco.

I'd certainly agree that the ideology behind the formation of the EU (starting with the Treaties of Paris and Rome) was driven by a French and German desire to ensure that the horrors of WWII were never repeated. I think everything from there, including Maastricht and the single currency, was just a continuation of that path. Given that Paris was signed in 1951 and Rome in 1957, it's clear why WWII was part of their reasoning.

I think it's important to remember that the idea of a joined-up Europe wasn't just driven by the West Germans - in 1946 Churchill himself called for a United States of Europe to be built up.

 

[Triggaaar]

Given their unreaslistic work ethic it's hard to feel much sympathy for the Greeks. I can think of plenty of other nations that are more deserving.

Although I was joking, I agree with your point. In reality, if any one of us were Greek, we wouldn't have been able to change things, so I do feel sorry for the individuals, but the country as a whole had it coming. They think it's ok to work a couple of hours a week for the state, get paid twice, and then retire at the age of 12.

 

[Pavilionaire]

As for my views on Germany, I like the Germans too and for me personally my trip to WC2006 was the point when they really turned the corner. The people were friendly and hospitable, their tolerance of English loutish behaviour went way above what could have been expected, and despite the shit some English fans gave in Cologne vs Sweden they managed not to tar all English with the same brush - something the Italians could learn from.

 

[DerbyGull]

Given the devastation caused by 2 World Wars, the readiness of the Allies to help Germany rebuild post-1945 and the writing-off of war debt / reparations do the Germans now owe it to rest of Europe to provide much more cash for the bailout and help avert Eurozone meltdown?

So punish one of the very few solvent and successful countries in europe for something that happened 70+ yrs ago by a completely different generation of people?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

You can't have a genuine single market without a unified currency (imagine what would happen in the UK if Yorkshire constantly devalued its currency) and if you've got a single currency you really have to have similar fiscal policies.

The instigators of the Euro should have been open about this from the start, or resisted the entry of dodgy economies. If that's one argument for Germany putting more funds into the project then another one is that the Euro has benefitted German exporters hugely over the years.

It is very difficult to criticise Germany though. The Germans have run their country well, worked hard, remained sober and financed their industries in a way that makes the UK look like the Wild West. I too am full of admiration for them. If Angela Merkel had stood at the last election and promised to run the entire UK economy and its trashed currency from Berlin she'd have got my vote.

 

[Triggaaar]

despite the shit some English fans gave in Cologne vs Sweden they managed not to tar all English with the same brush - something the Italians could learn from.

Er, Pot, Kettle.

 

[sten_super]

It is very difficult to criticise Germany though. The Germans have run their country well, worked hard, remained sober and financed their industries in a way that makes the UK look like the Wild West. I too am full of admiration for them. If Angela Merkel had stood at the last election and promised to run the entire UK economy and its trashed currency from Berlin she'd have got my vote.

I agree with a lot of that, but one of the points I'd come back to is that the German economy benefited at the expense (in the literal sense - i.e. the other countries paid for their goods and services) of the EU member states running trade deficits (note I'm not talking about the public sector but trade). Part of that 'deal' should be, IMHO, a fiscal transfer to pay for economic development in other parts of the currency area.

Take the UK as an example. Services companies in the South East make money off the back of demand from other parts of the country (e.g. the North East). The South East economy booms, but some of the tax revenues generated in the South East are then invested in the North East to keep the region 'solvent' and to allow them to foster further spending. No-one (really) complains about this - yet some Germans are trying to kick up a fuss about exactly this kind of situation occuring in Europe, just because these transfers take place across national borders.

 

[Chamberpot]

Simple answer is no, they've already tried to save them before, but Greece swallowed the money. I think Greece should go out of the eurozone and try to see if that's any better for them.

 

[Hamilton]

If they do so, then does it mean they can say "there, we're quits" and reinvade Poland?

Seems quite a ridiculous suggestion and worrying how R5 are pursuing such cheap lines of discussion.

As a balance to paying for the damage caused by 'the empire', we only finished repaying our World War 2 war debts to the USA and Canada in 2006 so perhaps it's OK for Britain to ask to opt out this time.

 

[Lush]

There's a very good piece of thinking by John Gray on the EU from BBC Radio 4 Points of View. Only 10 mins and you can listen here. BBC - BBC Radio 4 Programmes - A Point of View, Greece and the Meaning of Folly

"The celebrated thinker John Gray gives his reflection on the meaning of folly. Taking the myth of the Trojan horse as his starting point, he explores what he sees as the modern day folly unfolding in Europe. He calls on European leaders to reconsider the single European currency - a project he says was always doomed to fail."

It does worry me that, although the UK can decide certain legislation for itself, we are effectively a United States of Europe on other issues. All UK jobs are open to people from the whole of the EU; houses have to be built to accommodate people wanting to work here; their children educated; their health cared for and benefits paid. If we were a geographically bigger country, then fine - welcome one and all, but we aren't. With English being a common second language this is a very popular place to live.

 

[cannedheat]

heheh,

this thread just shows how ppl are still stuck in nationalism .....this is not actually what is going on.....it is the corporate and banking elite taking from the ppl.

"greeks this, and germans that" does not get anywhere close to what is going on.

the IMF - backed by the elite (land where born matter not or relevant) are raping nations, and people.

OK David.

 

[Hamilton]

I agree with a lot of that, but one of the points I'd come back to is that the German economy benefited at the expense (in the literal sense - i.e. the other countries paid for their goods and services) of the EU member states running trade deficits (note I'm not talking about the public sector but trade). Part of that 'deal' should be, IMHO, a fiscal transfer to pay for economic development in other parts of the currency area.

Take the UK as an example. Services companies in the South East make money off the back of demand from other parts of the country (e.g. the North East). The South East economy booms, but some of the tax revenues generated in the South East are then invested in the North East to keep the region 'solvent' and to allow them to foster further spending. No-one (really) complains about this - yet some Germans are trying to kick up a fuss about exactly this kind of situation occuring in Europe, just because these transfers take place across national borders.

This is about belief in the single currency and belief in Europe. I don't think they have any choice.

What I think this situation will do is make entry to the single currency a lot harder, as it should be. The criteria for entry has not been stringent enough and that should be a worry to some of the economies. There has been a rush to federalism and the single currency has been used as a battering ram. The divergent economies of the European countries are going to leave certain governments more exposed than others to changing economic environments. The politicians should have been cognisant of that fact when they signed up, so now there are difficulties they have to stand by their promises.

 

[Storer 68]

There's a very good piece of thinking by John Gray on the EU from BBC Radio 4 Points of View. Only 10 mins and you can listen here. BBC - BBC Radio 4 Programmes - A Point of View, Greece and the Meaning of Folly

"The celebrated thinker John Gray gives his reflection on the meaning of folly. Taking the myth of the Trojan horse as his starting point, he explores what he sees as the modern day folly unfolding in Europe. He calls on European leaders to reconsider the single European currency - a project he says was always doomed to fail."

It does worry me that, although the UK can decide certain legislation for itself, we are effectively a United States of Europe on other issues. All UK jobs are open to people from the whole of the EU; . If we were a geographically bigger country, then fine - welcome one and all, but we aren't. .

But you can just as easily say "All European jobs are open to people from the UK - houses have to be built to accommodate people wanting to work here; their children educated; their health cared for and benefits paid..................... With English being a common second language this is a very popular place to live"

if they were quite as set on a single European currency as they were, why were they not just as set on a single central bank to back it up?

 

[ArcticBlue]

What a ridiculous comparison.

The German and French people shouldn't keep piling more money in though, and would be better off asking the Greeks to revert back to the Drachma, as the Greeks lied and cheated in order to join the Euro in the first place.

Not quite true. They joined with caveats during which time the Greek banks borrowed billions from German banks to lend to Joe Popodoplis so he in turn could buy German consumer goods (fridges, BMW's etc). This along with massive government borrowing again from the Germans and also the French banks with a promise to modernise the Greek infrastructure such as power stations, roads etc. Anybody in their right mind (or not taking bribes) could foresee that this current situation would eventually come about because the actual growth of the Greek economy would never meet the predicted growth forecast by the ECB. Before the Greeks joined the Euro, personal and government debt was almost zero.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[Pot noodles for everyone]

I don't often bite on here but f*** it.

...self-righteous indignation follows....

Weren't you all over that thread yesterday about people taking themselves too seriously? I seem to recall you were smugly urging people to follow your lead and not get wound up about things they read on here.

Chillax, Biccy-boy. Just do what I do and only post when you have something meaningful to say and you'll be just fine.

 

[Biscuit]

Weren't you all over that thread yesterday about people taking themselves too seriously? I seem to recall you were smugly urging people to follow your lead and not get wound up about things they read on here.

Chillax, Biccy-boy. Just do what I do and only post when you have something meaningful to say and you'll be just fine.

You're such a stalker. If you'd like a signed photo just ask mate